Synodontis haugi ??

[MatsP]

I'm posting this here, as I think that ONE of these two images would be the right species, but I don't think both are:

Above is from Mark Smith.

And this in the Cat-eLog:


They don't look very alike...

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Mats

[Silurus]

The only difference I see a a very slight one in the color pattern. Given that this would change with age, this translates to no difference at all.

[Birger]

I was thinking the same , most likely only an age difference.

Birger

[Dinyar]

Morphologically, the fish in the two photos certainly look very similar, but I always thought of S haugi as a grayish-black fish.

[Birger]

Fresh and Brackish water Fishes of Lower Guinea has them as "body and fins are uniformly brownish or with indistinct black spots. Young with large dark brown spots"

Seegers "These fish are brown with indistinct dark spots.Juveniles are more heavily spotted."

Birger

(Mats, I will update this data on some of these syno's)

[MatsP]

Ok, thanks - I will add the new picture when I get round to it.

Of course, the hue of the fish may also be related to colour correction/white-balance in the camera/scanner and post-processing - if you "lift" the colours, it may also turn the fish more brown/yellow.

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Mats

[jippo]

Fresh and Brackish water Fishes of Lower Guinea has them as "body and fins are uniformly brownish or with indistinct black spots. Young with large dark brown spots"

And this book also says that haugi has a large snout and well-developed lips. And I can't find any text which says that haugi has that dark area above humeral. Based on these I can't say this new one is haugi.

Seegers says that haugi is unknown in life and was described only from a single specimen. Are we sure that the pic at Cat-eLog really is haugi? Not the best shot but looks like it has quite long barbels rather than short ones. And with haugi maxillary barbels should reach only beyond base of pectoral spine and are as long or only slightly shorter than head.

[MatsP]

I saw those long barbels too, and I thought (probably incorrectly) that it looked similar to S. alberti - not that I really know what S. haugi should look like...

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Mats

[Silurus]

And I can't find any text which says that haugi has that dark area above humeral

That's because that “dark area” is not the result of pigmentation, but merely a more translucent tympanum (the part of the swim bladder that is nearest the body wall). In a preserved specimen, that area would not show up as being significantly darker than the surrounding region.

Not the best shot but looks like it has quite long barbels rather than short ones. And with haugi maxillary barbels should reach only beyond base of pectoral spine and are as long or only slightly shorter than head.

You forget barbels tend to grow allometrically — they are longer in young fish and tend to become shorter with age.

Based on these conclusions, there is no compelling reason to suppose that the fish is not S. haugi.

[jippo]

Thanks for explonation HH. So if there is only preserved specimen of some species this dark area is missing from description.

I have a list where are all synos that should have that dark area, I should add haugi to that list also?
I've never seen a real haugi, all that I've seen have been hybrids.

[Silurus]

I have a list where are all synos that should have that dark area, I should add haugi to that list also?

I think most light-colored synos will have that “dark area” because if the ground color of the body is light, the tympanum will tend to show up as in the photo.

[Birger]

Thanks from me as well HH, that is interesting and a good explanation.

Birger

[MatsP]

Based on these conclusions, there is no compelling reason to suppose that the fish is not S. haugi.

So, you think I should add the brown/golden fish in the first photo to the Cat-eLog?

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Mats

[Birger]

So, you think I should add the brown/golden fish in the first photo to the Cat-eLog?

You were probably asking HH, but I think so.

Birger

[jippo]

I have a list where are all synos that should have that dark area, I should add haugi to that list also?

I think most light-colored synos will have that “dark area” because if the ground color of the body is light, the tympanum will tend to show up as in the photo.

This makes sense. But is it possible that synos with this dark area has a thinner skin. I have some synos which had a very light color at LFS(stress color I think) and at my tank they turn very dark but still there is that dark area. And there is lots of light colored synos that doesn't have that dark area.

Sorry but I have to go back to main issue, haugi. I have to ask about those lips, is there some mistake at description or are they well developed only with mature specimens? I've been always checking long snout and lips when somebody claims that he has haugi, I might have done some wrong identifications based on that .

[MatsP]

Ok, so I've added this species to the Cat-eLog under S. haugi.

I'm not absolutely certain that the ID is correct, but given HH's and Birgers confidence that both of the pictures show the same species, I made the decision to put the new picture in. If we later on find that the ID is incorrect, we'll have to fix that then...

Jipoo: I'm not at all ignoring your opinion - that may well be what triggers the "let's fix that then" part.

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Mats

[Birger]

Jipoo: I'm not at all ignoring your opinion - that may well be what triggers the "let's fix that then" part.

Jippo's opinion is always taken into account and valued by myself...so keep it up .

Birger

[MatsP]

Jippo's opinion is always taken into account and valued by myself...so keep it up .

Absolutely - but I also think it's important to "decide something" - even if it turns out to be wrong later on, if we just discuss it forever, we don't actually get anywhere.

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Mats

[Birger]

Jippo's opinion is always taken into account and valued by myself...so keep it up .

Absolutely - but I also think it's important to "decide something" - even if it turns out to be wrong later on, if we just discuss it forever, we don't actually get anywhere.

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Mats

Very true

[jippo]

Jipoo: I'm not at all ignoring your opinion - that may well be what triggers the "let's fix that then" part.

Jippo's opinion is always taken into account and valued by myself...so keep it up .

Birger

And still disagree, sorry guys .
I still believe on description of haugi and there says that haugi has long snout and I can't see that with new "haugi". If you say schall or eburneensis I will buy it .

Has anyone seen real haugi somewhere?

[MatsP]

I certainly haven't seen one - and I'd be happy to ask someone else. Page & Wright, Vigliotta, or who else would know these things?

This picture is hardly any help at all:
http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/image_sho ... get=131728

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Mats

[MatsP]

On Dave Rinaldo's suggestion, I've asked Jeremy Wright to comment on this subject.

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Mats

[MatsP]

Right, I now have Jeremy Wright and John Friel helping out on this. Jeremy sent me some images originally from John, which show some more recent specimens of preserved S. haugi.

I will try to get those pictures in towards the weekend.

I get the feeling that BOTH of these fishes are actually NOT S. haugi.

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Mats

[MatsP]

I have added the images by John Friel of a more recent specimen.

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Mats

[jippo]

I notest that Synodontis sp. hybrid(2) looks very similar with fish on this topic, Synodontis haugi?

[sidguppy]

it's possible that one of the parents used to crate this hybrid is the haugi

but look at the tail......the hybrid has the telltale black parts that point at a Tanganyikan species used in the creation.
many hybrids are made by using Tanganyikan Syno's

the reasons for this are simple: a few Tanganyikan syno's are easily bred, hence available and they are also very contrasting wich means that the hybrid is pretty and will make money
money's the bottomline at the hybrid menace; only fools (and unfortunately there are such) would make ugly unappetizing hybrids; most hybrids we know are very nice patterned.
they need to sell!

[jippo]

it's possible that one of the parents used to crate this hybrid is the haugi

but look at the tail......the hybrid has the telltale black parts that point at a Tanganyikan species used in the creation.
many hybrids are made by using Tanganyikan Syno's

I'm very familiar with this. There is also many genuine riverine syno's that have tail like that. I have bastiani(eburneensis) that had black lobes on tail when I got it but after a while I hardly saw those black lobes. As I can see this was due to a different water parameters, mine pH is about 6.5 and it came from a tank where pH was around 7.5. On the other hand pleurops has always visible black lobes at every water parameter.

Mats, is it possible to ask about this hybrid from Mark Smith?

the reasons for this are simple: a few Tanganyikan syno's are easily bred, hence available and they are also very contrasting wich means that the hybrid is pretty and will make money
money's the bottomline at the hybrid menace; only fools (and unfortunately there are such) would make ugly unappetizing hybrids; most hybrids we know are very nice patterned.
they need to sell!

For sure money is the main issue here. People are always asking where are the cheapest fishes or why this species is so expensive, hybrids are one solution for this. If genuine decora cost 30-40e you can get almost look alike hybrid decora for 3-6e. Not a bad business and most of the people are happy because they don't know they have "a fake product". As you all know this "lowest price sell best" is global and many industry are very deep in that. And I must admit that I do the same quite often when I go to grocery.