Schoutedeni?

[unklebilly]

the profile for this fish claims these guys max out at 5" but this one is around 8"+

[Martin S]

Hi
I'm no syno expert but am not convinced this is actually a

Synodontis schoutedeni

- mostly because of the difference in the size and shape of the adipose fin (the one between the tail and the dorsal fin on top). Am not sure if it's another similar species, or, hopefully not, another hybrid.
I'd wait for the experts to answer, but that's my first instinct.
Martin

[jippo]

Definately not schoutedeni.

Haven't seen syno like that before, looks genuine but I have no idea about species. Looks little bit like caudalis but as I can see humeral process is not pointed like it should be. And patterning is something else that we've used to see with caudalis. Have to make some research.

[unklebilly]

I do have more pics with close ups of barbels and different angles if it helps - thanks

[Richard B]

Although it may be of no consequence, caudalis (or similar undescribed species), & centralis sprang to mind instantly - a close up side pic of the head would be good - in fact the more pics the better

[unklebilly]

here are a couple more.

[Silurus]

I think this is

Synodontis centralis

.

[unklebilly]

markings and other characteristics seem to match but this guy is about 8"

[Silurus]

The Cat-eLog size just means it's the biggest known size to date. There's every chance the maximum size of the fish is actually a lot larger (as seems to be the case here).

[MatsP]

It is not entirely uncommon that fish grow larger than the size listed in the Cat-eLog. It is "the documented size to the best of our knowledge", which usually means the size in a scientific document or database. If we are reasonably sure the ID is correct, then we should put a tape-measure next to the fish to get a better measure, and we can then update the Cat-eLog.

Also bear in mind that the size of the fish in the Cat-eLog is "standard length", which excludes the actual tail-fin - a lot of people measure their fish as "total length" - including the tail-fin. This can make a difference of an inch or two on a fish that is 4" long.

(Which is what silurus said in fewer words)

--
Mats

[unklebilly]

ah hence the sl/tl measurements. well I would be honored to have a record breaking centralis and will attempt to take an acceptable tape measured photo and submit it.

[unklebilly]

I am assuming it is not rare to have a rare syno since there are thousands of documented species?

[Martin S]

As there are no live photos in the cat-elog, then I'm sure PC would love to add some..hint, hint
Check out this link, for more details on how to email images.
Martin

[jippo]

Although it may be of no consequence, caudalis (or similar undescribed species), & centralis sprang to mind instantly - a close up side pic of the head would be good - in fact the more pics the better

I think this is

Synodontis centralis

.

That was on my mind also but as I can see there is some differences comparing to Poll's revision. According to Poll with centralis adipose fin should be low and short and humeral process very long and pointed. There is a photo at Seegers book by A.Kochetov which have different shape humeral than drawings. And Seegers says that lenght of adipose may vary but still it is low.

Is there any photo where we can see humeral process and how does its pectoral fin look like?

[unklebilly]

hope these are what you are looking for.

[Richard B]

is it me or does the humeral process seem rounded off?

[jippo]

Nice photos!

Very hard to see the shape of humeral, usually it's quite easy to see. But as we can see from Planche XII picture no15 of Poll's revision humeral process of centralis is almost invisible. But anyway with centralis humeral process should be very long and pointed. I don't think it's centralis, based on humeral, shape and size of adipose fin and anterior serrations of pectoral fin. Also dorsal fin looks too small for centralis and eye is too small.

If the humeral is pointed as I can see it I would say caudalis. There is lots of different pattern variations of this species, maybe this is something that we haven't seen before. Other option could be undescribed species but more I look your photos more I see caudalis.

[unklebilly]

yes even in person the humeral process is almost nonexistent. I looked at caudalis pics and did not see a huge resemblance. In some of those pics the humeral is long an pointed as well. HOwever I don't doubt this may be caudalis and his caudal streamers have never had time to develop due to nipping. Is it uncommon for them to develop in a community tank? And you are right. This fish has very beady little eyes. I don't think the pics display that very well due to the darkened coloring around them.
I found some photos of centralis but it is all of the same fish and quite a young one.
http://www.scotcat.com/mochokidae/s_centralis.htm

thanks

[Richard B]

IMHO the fish pictured on Scotcat is not centralis but waterlotti or a closely related mimic

[unklebilly]

Are there any other defining characteristics to determining this species as caudalis or otherwise?

[jippo]

As the name says caudalis have a large caudal fin.