I lost 3 L14... and now it comes to L25 : Help !

[ElTofi]

Hi you all,

In late November, I was in Hannover for the 1st international L-numbers days. I visited a nice place where I found 3 awesome Goldie Plecos bigger than 20 cm for a very fair price.

I brought them back in Switzerland and acclimated them like I always do, without any problem... From the 2nd day, they begun to eat normally, the found their place in the tank, even if it had been a bit of fight with the L25 and the LDA63 during a few nights...

everything was fine until late December, when one morning, I found the bigger dead ! No sign, no mark, no reason... the water chemistry was (and still is) perfect. I saw him eat shrimps and pellets for the few days before, it was totally unexpected. I let it go, considering it as a bad luck loss !

In mid January, I found the 2nd dead too... same "no sign", same story... I was mad... the only thing I can say is that it was breathing a bit faster than the others when I was waterchanging... I considered it was linked to stress because of 4-5°C fall once a week... After a few hours, anyway, everything was fine again... And the Goldies were the only fishes to be distressed by it. Even the older Goldie I have for years wasn't affected. Only the 3 (2) last newcomers ?!?

And yesterday, I found the last one (from the Hannover batch, the "historical" one is always fine) dead and half eaten by bacterias...

I don't understand... no sign from any other fish in the same tank ! no reason to die !

any idea ?

[MatsP]

I'm sorry about your loss, and the only thing I can think of would be if they are infested with some sort of parasite that has slowly overcome the fish - I'm sure you've considered this, so I'm probably stating the obvious...

--
Mats

[Richard B]

It might be too late in this instance but the thing that i was advised ago many years back was to contact a vet (with an interest in fish if possible) & see if they have contacts who could do a post-motem/autopsy with the fish to see if there was any infection/disease not obvious to the naked eye. I found someone through a koi keeping vet who identified a latent viral infection when i had a tank wipeout with my syno collection when i was in my late teens . Apparently this virus (can't remeber what it was) was most likely brought in on one of the w/c fish but as they were all healthy & not stressed so the virus was not a problem. However the fish became stressed when one of the connections of the filter intake became disconnected & due to lack of filtration overnight the fish became stressed & the virus took hold. I also flooded the living room & the fluval external (302?) had burned out/broke. Parents not happy, me not happy & it cost me a fair bit of money at the time but lesson learned - big collection of expensive fish - have more than one filter - or check as best you can every day etc

[ElTofi]

I kept the 2 biggest L14 in alcool, because I was just not able to throw them away... I don't know if alcool conserves the fish well enough for a post mortem research. Anyway, I have to check that with a guy in the club who's biologist. Maybe, he will agree to do this for me. I'll give news soon.

[zerojquan85]

So sorry to hear that.. I've been reading up on ur L25 plecos story..

Anyways.. About the Sudden l-14 DEATH.. it could be due to a parasite.. velvet if these L-14s were wild caught.. I had a similar situation about 1 months back.. it was a sudden death from a few of my established pleco, L-128, L-190.. i didnt understand why they were stress.. until i figured out my L-14 was carrying velvet....

I can't comment if ur L-14 had the same parasite.. perhaps it was something else.. but all i'll say is.. dont give up..

PS: if u have them in alcohol.. maybe u can take a pic and show members.. im sure there are others who can tell.

[ElTofi]

Hi you all,

I need an emergency help ! I still don't know why but it seems that the curse goes on ! After loosing my 3 Scobinancistrus, I lost on January 30th the L25 I had exchanged with Ingo in Hannover... and tonight, coming back to work, I see my breeding female L25 getting the same symptoms

I have no idea about what is wrong ! pH is fine, GH is around 14 (as it always had been) kH is around 8, oxygen level is more than sufficient, every chemical parameter is fine...

symptoms :

the fish is well, eating and moving at night and the next day, it begins to breathe heavily, it turns to a shade pale color (very pale and sick orange instead of deep red) and the day after, I find it dead !

it takes 24 to 36 hours, and I can't do nothing about it !

I really need your help ! Does anyone have an idea ? please !

[MatsP]

I'm sure others will have better hints, but if it was in my tank, I'd medicate with a mix of anti-parasite medication - Flubendazol, Metrindiazole and Praziquantel all three at once. It may not help, but it certainly won't do any harm - they are fairly gentle on fish, but hard on parasites.

--
Mats

[ElTofi]

and what about the other fishes in the tank ? they seem very clean and ok ?

if I use "heavy weapons" without knowing what it is about, do I take a risk on the others ?

[Richard B]

The only coupla things i could suggest are that your water supplier has some unusual additives - you could speak to them to check.

Otherwise could there be any "household" pollutants? Cleaning product fumes, decorating product fumes etc?

[MatsP]

and what about the other fishes in the tank ? they seem very clean and ok ?

if I use "heavy weapons" without knowing what it is about, do I take a risk on the others ?

If they are FISH, it should be no problem at all with the medications - you need to overdose something like 30x before fish are starting to feel negative effects (and the paper I saw said that this was due to the Ethanol that they used to dissolve the Flubendazol with, rather than any toxicity of the actual medication).

If you have snails or shrimp in the tank, then that may cause a problem, but for vertebrates, it should be safe to as long as you do not go mad with the dosing - even if you calculate wrong and use the dose as if one gallon is one liter, you should still be "safe" (not suggesting you do that, however!)

I would check the water as per Richard's suggestion too!

--
Mats

[ElTofi]

The only coupla things i could suggest are that your water supplier has some unusual additives - you could speak to them to check.

Otherwise could there be any "household" pollutants? Cleaning product fumes, decorating product fumes etc?

already thought about that... I have a deal with the water supplier, every year, when it comes to chlorid cleaning, they call me 3 days before. It costs me a box of bottle of good wine... (little village)...

and there is no reason to have a "household" pollutant in the tank, neither in the fishroom (downstairs in the underground floor)...

I think it's more about something the wild L14 brought with... but why now ? they were introduced in early December !

[Richard B]

Hmmm, if its something brought in by the wild L14 it possibly has taken hold due to some new stress factor which has upset the balance in the tank - stress from forming a new hierarcy, territory squabbles etc

[ElTofi]

24 hours from the first signs, and she's dead !

I feel sick and tired ! I begun a treatment tonight with Sera BaktoPur direkt, without knowing exactly what it's all about !

if anyone has interest in a L25 male, I hope I'll be able to save him (actually, he seems very well, but on Monday evening, I would have said the same with the female)

Same story for the "black Pseuda" male...

I cross my fingers to be able to preserve the LDA63, really...

I'm sick !

[Janne]

If I could not see any symptoms for any disease I would start to make a very huge water change, maybe 80% and after that add salt 50-100 g/100 L divided in two doses with a couple of hours between. If the fishes started to act more healthy I would wait to the next day and watch how they developed. If they still show signs to be sick I pick up the sick fish and check the gills for parasites, sometimes they can be stocked with small fish lice in the gills and if not they can be damaged by gill flukes. When a Loricariid are infected of bacteria on the body (most common Pseudomonas that always are present in the aquarium if you have organic waste products), the infection can be very rapid and the fish die within 12-24 hours... but, this can't be missed because the fish looks like something have eating the skin on the whole body... it has but of Pseudomonas bacteria's. Salt and antibacterial medication like Nitrofurazone or Aquafuran (broad spectra) helps in an early stage.

Metronidazol shall not be to heavy overdosed for plecos, 500 mg/100L and maximum 1000 mg/100L but needs to be watched for negative reactions, Praziquantel max 600 mg/100L under 4-6 hours, less 250-300 mg for longer treatment, Flubendazol 200 mg/100L for 2-3 days against skin and gill flukes. Praziquantel takes both internal worms and gill flukes.

Janne

[Flex]

I think that you should do an autopsy to determine the cause of death.

[Haavard Stoere]

Breeding the L25 had been a huge accomplishment I am devastated about your loss
I would inspect the gills, intestines and liver. Problems in these areas might be visible.

[DutchFry]

I'm so sorry for your loss

As Haavard says, you've done extremely well with these fish and I'm sure you inspired many of us, including me. I really hope that you find a nice female soon, and continue with the breeding efforts!

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Chris, I'm really sorry to hear this!
The pair had a special place in everybodys mind here in PC, and the breeding tales was amazing...

I'm really sorry....

[ElTofi]

thanks all for your very kind messages ... I'm trying to stop the process and to save the other fishes of this tank... Actually, I'm in a quite blue mood about it all... I'm thinking of selling it all and to let it go...

but som guys around me say it's gonna be all right soon... and that I'll get back on my feet to lead other challenging breedings...

let's wait and see... Actually, I'm just trying to save what can be saved...

[2wheelsx2]

Don't let it all go...that would even be sadder. I hadn't commented until now because I have no experience with these except through this site and your thread was inspiring. It would be sad to lose all that knowledge/experience. Bad things happen to good people sometimes, and nothing you're going to do is going to change that.

[zerojquan85]

Oh man.. So sorry to hear that..

At this point.. i would recommend transferring everything to a new tank and start new.. like you said.. Save what you can and hope the disease does not effect the new tank..

Dont give up hope!!!

[ElTofi]

I'm trying to save the L25 male and if I can, I'm not sure I want to keep it...

even if I can find another similar sized female, nothing tells me he will accept her... worst, he could kill any newcomer into this tank...

I'll give you news on the topic, but I guess the L25 male (45 cm TL) will be "for sale" in a few days... if anyone has interest -> MP

[ElTofi]

this time, it's over !

I lost every single Loricariidae in this tank, always the same story : they are fine on the first morning, they begin to breathe heavily in the evening and I find them dead within the next 24 hours

the only "signs" are : a very pale decoloration, a heavy breathing... and they are dead

I found yesterday my last Scarlet Male dead and this morning the last Panaque LDA63 Even if I knew it was a question of time, I'm very sad...

the Bacto Pur Direct Treatment had absolutely no impact on the illness process ! the other fishes of the tank (Myleus schomburgkii, Retroculus xinguensis, Chromobotia macracantha) are very well...

I know it's been a mess from the moment I introduced the WC Scobiancistrus and the WC Pseuda scarlet from Ingo, but if they were infected, I still don't understand why it took so long (around 5 weeks) to declare ?

Anyway, I took off the 2 dead fishes of the tank and put them into the freezer. I want to know what happened, I'm going to try to find out by observing and analyzing the bodies. Yesterday I think I saw the beginning of an explanation on the Scarlet : it seems there are small wholes along the sides, like if he had broken parts of his body odontodes. Moreover, it seems the whole belly has "melted" into a very liquid consistence .

I will investigate with the help of a friend in my club. He may be able to help me about the root cause and symptoms.

[andywoolloo]

Moreover, it seems the whole belly has "melted" into a very liquid consistence .

wow..very scary.... I am sorry that happenned to you and your fish.

[MatsP]

I'm SO sorry to hear that... And I do hope you have some way to find out what happened so that anyone else with the same problem MAY have some way to cure it.

--
Mats

[Janne]

Moreover, it seems the whole belly has "melted" into a very liquid consistence .

Without showing any signs of a swollen belly?

Janne

[ElTofi]

really nothing like that...

as already said, the fish seems perfectly all right (colors, feeding, behaviour) when it begins suddenly to breathe heavily, and then, around 24 hours later, it's dead !

I will try to investigate deeper this week-end with the deep frozen dead bodies of the Panaque and the Pseuda Scarlet...

[OlePaulsen]

Feel with you!
Had the same problem yesterday, I lost my female scobiancistrus aureatus
Now im stuck with a male left.

How is it going for your male 25?
Lucky they are gonna be legal to ship from brasil again this year, so you have better chance to get a female soon

Do you still keep the L320s?

[ElTofi]

this time, it's over !

I lost every single Loricariidae in this tank, ...

I found yesterday my last Scarlet Male dead and this morning the last Panaque LDA63 ...

nothing left to say... I'll give you news, if I can have any...

[OlePaulsen]

Shit !