Help!

[Bijn]

f***, this is worthless

I wish I could help.




Did you took a mucus sample and putted it under an microscope? If it isn't something chemical you should find something in the mucus.

[Martin S]

I know this doesn't help at all, but I feel terribly sorry for you. It's bloody unfair!

Thankyou, and no it certainly isn't. In thirty years of keeping fish and over 10 years working with fish, I have never seen fish wiped out so quickly and such damage occur to the body/fins in only a few hours.
I can only wait and see what the morning brings. I can only hope that the remaining unaffected fish (Lasiancistrus and Rhinodoras) stay that way, but again, it's just a waiting game

f***, this is worthless

I wish I could help.

Thanks, I wish you could too.
Martin

[Bijn]

Really weird theory, but who knows.



Some antibiotics can induce uv-intolerance by people. Maybe there is something similar with fishes.

then offcourse you have some questions:
-why the catfishes and not the others? Maybe because the others have reflecting scales?
-why doesn't they hide themselves from the light? Maybe they don't feel it at the moment they are burning (just like people).
-Why didn't the water change help? Because the medicine is still in the fish.
-Do I have UV-light in my tank? I don't know, the lights you use aren't know for producing UV, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't do it.


As far it is important: these are antibiotics that induce uv-intolerance by people:
demeclocycline
doxycycline
tetracycline



My theory is probably the most ridiculous you've ever heard, but I can only try.

[MatsP]

I doubt there is much UV light hitting a

Microglanis iheringi

when it's hiding under a piece of wood - they do not really come out in daylight - at least not unless food is being offered. And having seen where the Jaguar cat was hiding, I'd say it's pretty well shielded too.

Something is wrong with the water, I'd say,

--
Mats

[Martin S]

Something is wrong with the water, I'd say,

Agreed, but how come the angels and congos are all OK with no issues? I'm at a total loss to understand what has happened - I changed at least 80% of the water last night, treated the new with Aquasafe, and added some marine salt water to try and help, but the catfish just keep dying. Sorry am not meaning to sound argumentative, just frustrated as hell!
Martin

[MatsP]

Agreed, but how come the angels and congos are all OK with no issues? I'm at a total loss to understand what has happened - I changed at least 80% of the water last night, treated the new with Aquasafe, and added some marine salt water to try and help, but the catfish just keep dying. Sorry am not meaning to sound argumentative, just frustrated as hell!
Martin

I agree that it's strange, and I don't _KNOW_ what is right/wrong about all this. I just don't think the fish is UV sensitive due to medication...

Are you using the tap-water? I'd get you some of mine (RO or filtered through the carbon before RO unit) if it wasn't so darn hard to transport... Do you have a carbon-block filter you could acquire from the shop you work at? That would remove SOME potential harms from the water, and who knows what may be in your water. I agree it's strange that only some fish are affected, but a carbon filter on the water you put in the tank would remove SOME harmful stuff - not the nitrite, if that's what it is tho'.

--
Mats

[cochito]

I'm so sorry to see this. I'm definitely NOT an expert, but Japanese hobbyists usually don't treat catfish with medicines, for they are very vulnerable to chemicals. We usually raise the water temperature to ３１℃ and see if the white patches disappear in a couple of days. If not, dissolve some salt as suggested above.
Sorry that it's not any help at all.
I hope your fish will be fine

[Taratron]

Holy crap, are you sure this isn't my tank? My 90 just crashed bad, recently, and I lost 90% of my stock. Turns out some of my doradids had died, and were found floating a good deal of time later, so even with regular water changes, the ammonia had to be terrible. Lost all my plecos, cories, some hoplos...all the doradids. The kuhli loaches and shrimp pulled through, somehow, not a single loss.

Seriously, almost word for word this seems to have been what happened in my tank. One spotted raphael was out in the daytime, and dead a day later. Then the rest of the spotted and the striped, the latters found all floating, and some of the spotted as well. I never found the pleco or cory bodies. And I lost several hoplos too. All heavily armored cats!

Water change and water change and lots of Prime.

[L number Banana]

Going out on a limb here but I read a thread at one of the other forums, probably a planted tank forum and there was a thread from a woman who lost all her new/anniversary cats this way, skin peeling off before her eyes. It turned out to be pyrethrum added to the water to clear the critters out of the sewers. She had given up on a diagnosis until she got the answer by calling the city water dept.

I'll try to find it but I'm thinking it was a UK post so call your treatment plant to ask specifically. This place did it once a year. This would make sense. Have you got another tank to put the cats left into?

I'll post a link when I find it

[RickE]

Hi Martin

This is an awful story and I feel really sorry for you, you must feel so helpless. Can I suggest taking a step back and going back to basics? Just looking at the red patches in some of your photos this has to be a 'burn' of some kind. This may be chemical or, I think more likely, bacterial. If you are absolutely certain that all the water parameters are OK, it is almost certainly bacterial. it wouldn't be unusual for scaleless catfish to succumb to an infection that the other fish are not susceptible to. Shedding of slime is a typical natural reaction of catfish to infections. I would suggest that you remove the fish to another tank on their own if you can. Do medicate, probably with Myxazin as it is effective against bacterial infections and is gentle on scaleless fishes. I don't believe it is the cause of your problems as we used to use it prophylatically on all wild SA imports when I worked at Waerlife and it never caused this sort of problem. Do large water changes daily and re-medicate immediately afterwards.

I fear it may be too late, but it's worth a try.

Best regards

Rick

[Martin S]

Again, thanks all for the suggestions etc.
As I suspected, the small jag and the large Microglanis both dead this morning. I've seen one of the smaller Microglanis (of the two I know should be remaining), and both the Rhinodoras and Lasiancistrus, thus far, look like they have not been affected by this. I've been round lifting all bits of wood/stone and working into the plants to ensure there are no dead/trapped fish - nothing. I'll do another 50% water change today, and although I can't get to my LFS today as am at work, I will drive over to my local Pets @ Home this evening and pick up some carbon to put in the external, and also purchase an ammonia test kit.
The congos and angels still look as healthy as ever.

Going out on a limb here but I read a thread at one of the other forums, probably a planted tank forum and there was a thread from a woman who lost all her new/anniversary cats this way, skin peeling off before her eyes. It turned out to be pyrethrum added to the water to clear the critters out of the sewers. She had given up on a diagnosis until she got the answer by calling the city water dept.

I'll try to find it but I'm thinking it was a UK post so call your treatment plant to ask specifically. This place did it once a year. This would make sense. Have you got another tank to put the cats left into?

I'll post a link when I find it

Yes, please do - I'm going to call my water company today and ask if the nitrite reading is acceptable, and will mention pyrethrum.
Again, thanks to everyone for your kind words and support.
Martin

[Martin S]

OK, have called the water company - low nitrite is as expected, but definitely not added Pyrethum to the water. They have not made any changes to the water in the past few weeks, so that pretty much rules tap water out. I can only guess it's either ammonia (but that would have killed/upset the congos and angels), or as rick suggested I'm going to pull the tank apart tonight - move all the wood/rocks/plants and ensure there is nothing dead and then perform another 50% water change and add carbon to the filter. I'll also check the external too whilst i'm adding the carbon.
And thanks to the offer of RO water Mats, much appreciated.
Martin

[cochito]

Martin, I'm sorry about your loss and that I couldn't be any help.
I wish for your future success.
My Regards.

[wrasse]

This is an awful story and I feel really sorry for you, you must feel so helpless. Can I suggest taking a step back and going back to basics? Just looking at the red patches in some of your photos this has to be a 'burn' of some kind. This may be chemical or, I think more likely, bacterial. If you are absolutely certain that all the water parameters are OK, it is almost certainly bacterial. it wouldn't be unusual for scaleless catfish to succumb to an infection that the other fish are not susceptible to. Shedding of slime is a typical natural reaction of catfish to infections. I would suggest that you remove the fish to another tank on their own if you can. Do medicate, probably with Myxazin as it is effective against bacterial infections and is gentle on scaleless fishes. I don't believe it is the cause of your problems as we used to use it prophylatically on all wild SA imports when I worked at Waerlife and it never caused this sort of problem. Do large water changes daily and re-medicate immediately afterwards.

I think I agree with that. Myxazin is mild and broad action medication. But it might be a problem if it was old or gone-off or overdosed. Rapid breathing/ gill irritation/ shed slime, would be symptoms of this.
Congo tetras are what I call 'bullet-proof'. And angels are tough too. But its odd that they are unaffected.

[sidguppy]

this is horrible......very sorry to read all this

I think some kinds of chemical chain reaction went through that tank.
and with every dead catfish more toxic substances got released and more fish got poisoned.

I've seen it happen too; and some fish are unfazed. weird, but still.
todays Angelfish are very sturdy; massbred in captivity, unless you keep Red Back Scalare or Altum or something.

Congo Tetra's are indeed very tough, although a long time ago, something like this went through my tank (back in 1988) and wiped out all Callichthys, Hoplo's, Opsodoras and most Red Eye Congo Tetra's in my case. in my case species like Poptella and Ancistrus just kept on going.

the only thing you can do now is change water, get any dead or dying fish out as fast as possible, filter the water using active carbon and add salt.
and keep the oxygen levels right up.

[Martin S]

horrible indeed
That is all it can be, but I'll be damned if i know what started it.
The angels are F1 P.scalare, so not one of the the mass produced ones - when i left home this morning, those andthe congos were looking as happy and active as ever.
And yes, agreed, carbon going into the filter tonight, another water change and more salt.
I'll swap one of the airstones for a new one too as it's not pushing out as much air as the newer one.
Fingers crossed no more deaths....
Martin

[Martin S]

But it might be a problem if it was old or gone-off or overdosed.

One of the things I checked - best before is mid 2012, and I dosed the same amout each day (15 ml for 230L/50 gallons) where dosage is 4ml per 60 litres per day for 5 days.
Martin

[sojapat]

Hi Chaps, Here are a few things I have read that I would like to try to help with ?
I dont want to cause offence by my thoughts.
Nitrite in any amount is not good for the fish ,we use RO water and buffer.
Dip tests are on the whole unreliable for accurate readings .
I dont think the myxazin is an issue its too weak to burn fishes.
I think the fishes have been burned with something ,Ammonia,nitrite,maybe a combination at some stage most probably the move.
Another couple of thing may be good to test , GH,KH,Phosphate and nitrate with a good kit .
The burned fishes have contracted oodinium which is going through the weaker strains of fishes .
These fishes are dificult to deal with once they have become sick ,I too have lost auchenipterids en mass
Looking fine after arrival, 48 hours later like they have had flour poured on them. Jags are the worst.
The sad thing is I never found anything to stop it when it gets hold .
Newly imported fishes of this genus now go through a treatment when they arrive .
I think its the burned skin that gets infected .It does not always take other tankmates down.
It isnt going to solve the past but think about an RO unit it WILL help you be confident that you are not adding any unwanted things?
The only thing now is wether you choose to ride it out or treat the velvet?
If you choose to treat try this Interpet No5 liquisil in addition to the salt .
It works to prevent this on callicthys,hoplo,tatia ect.

[Martin S]

Hi Neil
No offence taken. And I agree about RO water, but being in a flat, and on a water meter, it's just not practical at the moment, but when I move, it is the first thing (after a bigger tank) that I will invest in.

I'm still at a loss to explain the fact that not only have the congo tetras and angels survived, but I still have the Lasiancistrus and Rhinodoras, both unmarked, and looking healthy, yet have lost the other fish to such awful symptoms. I cannot understand how, if it was ammonia, or nitrite (and if ammonia, then surely the nitrite would have been high?) why did the nitrite reading before and after water change not show anything other than the 'light' reading I have been having due to it being in the tapwater? I did nitrite test with two seperate test kits, and got the same reading in both, as well as the dip test as a quick 'what is going on' before the liquid tests. And how have the fish that have survived not been affected in any way - two of the male congos were displaying to each other this evening, and the angels look like they are ready to lay eggs again!!!

I'm now down to just two catfish

Rhinodoras boehlkei

and

Lasiancistrus sp(l033)

, having found the last of the five Microglanis this evening when I got home from work. I have already added carbon to the external filter, just to give me the extra comfort of knowing that anything in the water will hopefully be removed. Water changes will continue as well.

Obviously nothing else will be added to the tank for the forseeable future - I was almost tempted to shut it down and sell on, having lost all those fish in such a short time, but I'll keep what I have, and wait and hopefully I'll get to be able to keep jags again someday.

Again, thanks for all the kind words, advice and support - it has been much appreciated.
Martin

[sojapat]

Hi Martin, I think it was a combination of things I am sorry it took out the other fish.Keep your chin up buddy.

[sidguppy]

Martin, how fare the fish?

are there any catfishes left alive after this disaster so far?

[Martin S]

Hi Alex
Thanks for asking. I still the have the Rhinodoras boehlkei and Lasiancistrus sp(l033) doing perfectly well, and I have to say I've never seen congo tetras is such a lovely condition! You'd think nothing had happened .
As I said above, I'll hold back on adding anything else, more because I can't find or afford the fish I'd like at the moment, but will leave the tank to it's own devices, do the usual water changes and feed, and when the time is right, I hope to be able to add some interesting auchenipterids and doradids.
Thanks again for all your advice and help - much appreciated.
Martin

[MatsP]

If I get past Oxford in the next few weeks (loose plans as of right now), I'll see if they have any more bumble-bees. They will be on me. I'll keep them until you feel ready to give them a home (I'm thinking to get about 8 and keep half of them for myself).

--
Mats

[andywoolloo]

I am so sorry, I have been watching this thread and reading it with much sadness for you and your fish.

I am glad you still have the two!

Sorry I didn't have any advice for you, but I was pulling for your fish.

[Martin S]

If I get past Oxford in the next few weeks (loose plans as of right now), I'll see if they have any more bumble-bees. They will be on me. I'll keep them until you feel ready to give them a home (I'm thinking to get about 8 and keep half of them for myself).

--
Mats

Thankyou very much Mats, but there really is no need. I have been meaning to ask...how are your fish doing? I know you said you had lost your 183s - how about the doras and other L nos?

I am so sorry, I have been watching this thread and reading it with much sadness for you and your fish.

I am glad you still have the two!

Sorry I didn't have any advice for you, but I was pulling for your fish.

Thankyou - it's been a tough couple of weeks for me and my fishkeeping, but hopefully I'll keep on going - the oddball tank is doing great, and i've recently set up a little marine nano tank. I think the hardest thing will be waiting to find some fish again that I really want.

Martin

[MatsP]

I haven't disturbed the new tank, but I have the L052 all present and correct, and at least 2 of the Orinocodoras are still there - I _think_ I saw three of them, but it's a bit difficult, they are a bit shy and two of them are pretty similar - I have one large and two smaller ones. I can usually spot one small and one large, but I think there was a small one end of the tank and a small at the other end...

--
Mats

[Martin S]

I haven't disturbed the new tank, but I have the L052 all present and correct, and at least 2 of the Orinocodoras are still there - I _think_ I saw three of them, but it's a bit difficult, they are a bit shy and two of them are pretty similar - I have one large and two smaller ones. I can usually spot one small and one large, but I think there was a small one end of the tank and a small at the other end...

--
Mats

That's good news - sad about the 183s though (did you hear from Daniel and Jimmy about how theirs are doing?)
Thanks again Mats
Martin

[Carp37]

Really sorry for your problems Martin. A few of us in the Sheffield area have been having problems losing fish during the last month (at least I've only lost relatively cheap fish, but it's still not pleasant, and makes me wonder if there have been any tapwater quality issues) as well, but nothing like you've gone through.

[RIPbiglad]

sorry for your losses Martin. I am one of the ones who carp37 mentions in the last post. I lost at least a dozon fish (mainly cories) and was at a loss as to the cause. I put it down to introducing some new fish without QT but now im not so sure. Chin up

[Martin S]

Thanks all
I hope you find the cause - am sure you agree, cost or size doesn't matter, it's just so upsetting to not be able to do anything that seems to help.
I (hopefully) seem to have come through the other side, with, as you know, quite a heavy loss to my collection, but have to, as you have said, keep my chin up.
To everyone who has commented, PM'd and just followed this thread, thankyou.
Martin