Which Auchenipterids are being kept by PC members?

[Martin S]

I went out for a quick photo session (I'm baby-sitting, so can't go sit in the fish-room for hours on end to get a good photo).

I expect you may need further photos... But here's two of the better ones so far.

This is a crop of a much larger shot.

IMG_1098.JPG

More detail of the rear of the other fish... It seems to be resting much more than the one in the first photo, which is more or less constantly cruising the current area at the back of the tank. Not sure if the redness around the anal fin is anything to worry about...

IMG_1102.JPG

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Mats

Thanks Mats
It does look quite a bit like A. nuchalis, but the stripes are more prominent and there is no mention of any striping in the PDF on that particular species. The second pic, whilst definitely a male, I'm not sure the red is something to worry about either - it does look like something is not quite right as it's hiding unlike it's counterpart who is still quite active. Not sure what to suggest - am hoping Marc may have a better idea...
Thanks again
Martin

[Marc van Arc]

From what I can see on the pictures, it may well be A. nuchalis. The caudal pattern gives a nice indication: it looks like Entomocorus gameroi (black at the basis of the tail, spreading towards the upper caudal lobe). The zig-zag lateral line fits too.
The high dorsal rules out Epapterus or Pseudepapterus.
Wrt the PDF: don't forget these people work with dead fishes, that may have been sitting in jars for ages. Colour and patterns wear off! I'd like to see your fishes again once settled and at ease. My bet is that they'll become darker. Also, have a look at the pictures in the Clog(*) and compare. Some are black, some much paler.
Wrt the reddish colour: for some reason auchenipterids are easily injured when caught or chased. I wouldn't add medication right now. Give it a few days to heal. A fish that has been in a tank for such a long time can't get a bacterial infection from being moved to another tank. The fact that it is "wounded" and stressed may also account for the fact that it is less active compared to the other specimen.
Btw: it looks like you have a pair - I don't see a genital papilla in the bottom glass of the upper picture.

provided they're all the same species; there have been discussions on the matter recently.

[Martin S]

From what I can see on the pictures, it may well be A. nuchalis. The caudal pattern gives a nice indication: it looks like Entomocorus gameroi (black at the basis of the tail, spreading towards the upper caudal lobe). The zig-zag lateral line fits too.
The high dorsal rules out Epapterus or Pseudepapterus.
Wrt the PDF: don't forget these people work with dead fishes, that may have been sitting in jars for ages. Colour and patterns wear off! I'd like to see your fishes again once settled and at ease. My bet is that they'll become darker. Also, have a look at the pictures in the Clog(*) and compare. Some are black, some much paler.
Wrt the reddish colour: for some reason auchenipterids are easily injured when caught or chased. I wouldn't add medication right now. Give it a few days to heal. A fish that has been in a tank for such a long time can't get a bacterial infection from being moved to another tank. The fact that it is "wounded" and stressed may also account for the fact that it is less active compared to the other specimen.
Btw: it looks like you have a pair - I don't see a genital papilla in the bottom glass of the upper picture.

provided they're all the same species; there have been discussions on the matter recently.

Thanks Marc - as always, invaluable advice.
Once they have settled in, I will get some photos/video to share.
Martin

[MatsP]

Both fish seem to be more settled in and active today.

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Mats

[Richard B]

In Sands CotW vol3 page 24 shows the fish as A Nuchalis it is later corrected to E Dispilurus on 24d - cat-e-log A Nuchalis is there or thereabouts the fish you have in basic looks

High dorsal, adipose/no adipose, other identification features etc need to be determined sometime in the future methinks but this is as close as we can get at this point (probably)

[Martin S]

In Sands CotW vol3 page 24 shows the fish as A Nuchalis it is later corrected to E Dispilurus on 24d - cat-e-log A Nuchalis is there or thereabouts the fish you have in basic looks

High dorsal, adipose/no adipose, other identification features etc need to be determined sometime in the future methinks but this is as close as we can get at this point (probably)

Thanks Richard will check it out when I get home.
Martin

[Marc van Arc]

In Sands CotW vol3 page 24 shows the fish as A Nuchalis it is later corrected to E Dispilurus on 24d - cat-e-log A Nuchalis is there or thereabouts the fish you have in basic looks

The fish in Sands is indeed not A. nuchalis, but an Epapterus, most likely E. dispilurus. No question about that.

High dorsal, adipose/no adipose, other identification features etc need to be determined sometime in the future methinks but this is as close as we can get at this point (probably)

In Mats' pictures I see a high dorsal, an adipose (which Epapterus lacks) and the correct caudal pattern for A. nuchalis. The fact that they are somewhat off colour is easily explained. I think we're on the right track.
Or do I misinterpret the "this" in your posting?

[Martin S]

I just checked out p24 and noticed the missing adipose, which threw me completely, so thanks Marc for clarifying which fish CotW was showing.
Martin

[Richard B]

The pic in Sands sprang to mind when i saw the fish at Pier, at least it seemed the closest to anything that i am familiar with.

What i was trying to say is A Nuchalis seems correct until better photos are available & someone like Marc or HH says otherwise.

[Marc van Arc]

& someone like Marc or HH says otherwise.

You're giving me too much credit. I would definitely not place myself in the same league as HH.
I'm just a hobbyist with a preference - just like yourself and many other people on this site

[Richard B]

& someone like Marc or HH says otherwise.

You're giving me too much credit. I would definitely not place myself in the same league as HH.
I'm just a hobbyist with a preference - just like yourself and many other people on this site

Whist there are few contributors who are in the same league as HH, i think in auchenipterid terms, you are being very modest & selling yourself short - i'm sure there are lots of contributors who are appreciative of your guidance when it comes to woodcats

[Martin S]

Whist there are few contributors who are in the same league as HH, i think in auchenipterid terms, you are being very modest & selling yourself short - i'm sure there are lots of contributors who are appreciative of your guidance when it comes to woodcats

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Richard

Anyway, I look forward to adding more to this thread in the way of pictures of what the new arrivals look like once they have settled in...though I guess I need to organise with Mats to collect them before that's going to happen
Martin

[MatsP]

I also agree with Richard - Marc, you may not have HH's wide knowledge, but in the area of Auchenipterids, I'd say you are at least close. I don't know if there is any professional expert (like Jon Armbruster and Mark Sabaj on Loricariidae and Doradidae, for example) - I expect there is someone, and I sort of expect that name to be in your e-mail address book as well.

Anyway, I look forward to adding more to this thread in the way of pictures of what the new arrivals look like once they have settled in...though I guess I need to organise with Mats to collect them before that's going to happen
Martin

I'm available almost any time in the next several days. I plan on going to Maidenhead Aquatics Farnham on Saturday with some Bristlenoses - if you wish to arrange for a joint visit, we could perhaps do that.

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Mats

[Martin S]

So, I collected the two (probably) A. Nuchalis from Mats today (Sunday) (thanks again Mats ), and after a long acclimitisation period, they were in the tank with the lights out for the evening.
Initial observations from the viewig them in Mats tank and the bucket during the acclimitisation period - I believe both to be male, one seems to have a more developed genital papillae than the other but I'd say they are both male. They have both lost the ends of each pectoral fin leading ray, and both have damage around the mouth and so will be treating with Myxazin for the next five days to try and reduce the chance of any secondary infections setting in from the sttress of the move.
I'll keep my eye on them over the next few days and hope that they revert back to being as active as they were when I collected them today. I can see the pangasius similarity which Mats mentioned, but looking at them in my tank, you can really see they are auchenipterids - I look forward to watching them settle in, and hopefully the small areas of damage will repair themselves quickly.
They are already taking prepared foods (tetra bits) but think I will try and get them onto some larger foods such as river shrimp. Any other suggestions of what I can feed them (I assume they are also surface feeders), but guess that my adult congo tetras will all be safe...he says, with fingers crossed
I'll update once they have started being more active and will try and get some photos and/or video.
Regards
Martin

[Richard B]

They did look to be both male in the shop with the fatter one being more mature than the other. A bit of TLC should ensure thet get back to prime condition & i look forward to updates on their progress

[Marc van Arc]

I don't know if there is any professional expert - I expect there is someone, and I sort of expect that name to be in your e-mail address book as well.

Not quite. There have been the written correspondences with Dr. Mees long ago and some years ago I have emailed with Dr. Ferraris (mostly on the matter of internal fertilization in Centromochlinae and on the unknown Auchenipteridae sp. guyana). I would consider both as professional experts and both correspondences turned out to be very helpful.
Nowadays I would also consider Mrs. Sarmento to be an expert on Auchenipteridae. I have emailed her as well (wrt the unknown auchenipterid, but got no reply. I think Steve (The Dark One) has better connections here, which will result in the fact that - sooner or later - I'll know the name of that fish. Which is fine.
HH has also helped a great deal in sharing all kinds of papers wrt Auchenipteridae or telling me where to obtain them.
Everyone on PC with questions and/or remarks wrt auchenipterids is being helpful.
And books of course, whether outdated or not. A fish may have its name changed 20 times per decade, yet its looks remain the same. Therefore pictures are always useful, as are good descriptions.
However, I'll have severe problems with preserved (= dead for some time) specimens and pls don't ask me to "tear a fish apart".

Anyway, thanks for your kind comments. I'm especially happy that this thread is still alive after more than three years. When I started this, I thought Auchenipteridae could use some extra attention. Thanks to all contributors they have got that, haven't they?

Marc

[Marc van Arc]

They have both lost the ends of each pectoral fin leading ray, and both have damage around the mouth and so will be treating with Myxazin for the next five days to try and reduce the chance of any secondary infections setting in from the stress of the move.

I shouldn't worry too much Martin, these are tough fish despite their "fragile" looks. You'll see that the wounds will heal quickly.
I doubt the pectoral rays will grow back, but I don't think that's a problem for you, is it?

Any other suggestions of what I can feed them (I assume they are also surface feeders), but guess that my adult congo tetras will all be safe...he says, with fingers crossed

I don't think they will go after you tetras. If your Tetranematichthys doesn't, they won't either. Their mouths aren't large enough to swallow prey like adult Congos and they can't bite pieces of other other fishes. The Tetras may be scared in the beginning and jump (and if they're already used to the Tetranematicthys they won't even do that).

I'll update once they have started being more active and will try and get some photos and/or video.

Looking forward to that .

[Martin S]

Anyway, thanks for your kind comments. I'm especially happy that this thread is still alive after more than three years. When I started this, I thought Auchenipteridae could use some extra attention. Thanks to all contributors they have got that, haven't they?

They have indeed

OK, so thought I would share some additional observations as they are now both cruising the dark tank - initially they pretty much stayed where they landed, but they are now both very active. Even with lights off, it looks like the lesser developed one has lost both primary barbels and I cannot see any secondary ones either, while the larger has one, along with the other four secondary barbels present. I'd say the smaller specimen has more damage to the mouth - could this be a reason why the damage is present? Would they be more likely to collide with tank decorations without the barbels present? I can only hope they will grow back though am not sure how long they have been missing.

The better developed of the two is definitely less slender than the other one, but being both male, this could be a sign of dominance maybe? Another minor observation is that they both appear to swim at a slight 'lop-sided' angle, which again I am not sure if this is related to the barbel loss/damage.

With the lights on tomorrow, I will spend some more time trying to observe them some more and ascertain if the barbel damage is as bad as I suspect.

Martin

[MatsP]

Anyway, thanks for your kind comments. I'm especially happy that this thread is still alive after more than three years. When I started this, I thought Auchenipteridae could use some extra attention. Thanks to all contributors they have got that, haven't they?

And very good it is too. I would not have been as interested in taking on Martin's Centromochlus romani when he tore down the tank some time ago had it not been for this thread. I hope I can breed them soon, now that Martin kindly donated a spare male to me.

Perhaps we should have more threads like this.

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Mats

[Martin S]

I shouldn't worry too much Martin, these are tough fish despite their "fragile" looks. You'll see that the wounds will heal quickly. I doubt the pectoral rays will grow back, but I don't think that's a problem for you, is it?

That's as I suspected, but no, not a problem at all.

I don't think they will go after you tetras. If your Tetranematichthys doesn't, they won't either. Their mouths aren't large enough to swallow prey like adult Congos and they can't bite pieces of other other fishes. The Tetras may be scared in the beginning and jump (and if they're already used to the Tetranematicthys they won't even do that).

I guessed so, as they have not been prey to the Tetranematicthys, but just wanted to check - thanks.

Looking forward to that .

I'll not leave it too long then
Martin

[Marc van Arc]

With lop-sided, do you mean head up, tail down?

[Martin S]

With lop-sided, do you mean head up, tail down?

No, lop sided, as in looking at the fish head on, more / than -- (I hope that makes sense).
Martin

[Marc van Arc]

I meant: the head is (slightly) higher than the tail. Is that what you mean as well? Not horizontally anyway.

[Martin S]

I meant: the head is (slightly) higher than the tail. Is that what you mean as well? Not horizontally anyway.

Yes, they do seem to, though was less worried about that position than the other.
Martin

[Richard B]

I'm especially happy that this thread is still alive after more than three years. When I started this, I thought Auchenipteridae could use some extra attention. Thanks to all contributors they have got that, haven't they?
Marc

Indeed they have

I find woodcats fascinating (possibly due to one of my first ever cats being a Galeatus, way back in the day), but alas it really is a case of too many species, too little space for me......(maybe i can find a tiny sp, to squeeze in somewhere?)

Anyway, time to get back to the TV - after watching the always excellent David Attenborough in "Life" earlier, i'm now watching the not that great "Deep Blue Sea" even if it has got Samuel L Jackson AND LL Cool J in, it's a bit... well trashy

[Marc van Arc]

[Yes, they do seem to, though was less worried about that position than the other.

Which other position? I'm afraid I'm a bit lost...

Anyway, don't worry about them swimming like that. Several Auchenipteridae do so. Your Tetranematichthys does it too, as well as almost every Ageneiosus and T. fisheri.
Your observation wrt the lack of barbels combined with the mouth damage makes sense. Could well be that this fish doesn't stop in time. On the other hand, I've seen stressed specimens of any A. species (with barbels) banging into all four sides of the tank - several times.....

[Martin S]

Sorry, I guessed I hadn't described it too well. I just meant that watching the fish swim, it was leaning to one side,i.e. slightly off the horizontal plane across the pectoral fins, as well as the head up/tail down position - does that make more sense?
Looking at the fish head on, i.e. _/\_, it's tilted slightly to one side.
And thanks, am glad you agree with my logic (someone has too ) re: the damage.
Martin

[Marc van Arc]

I see what you mean: they "swing" a bit. I see that kind of swimming all the time in my Ageneiosus sp 3 (sorry to bring that up), so again, I wouldn't worry too much. Give them some time to adapt, see that they eat well and that the wounds heal. It's not only getting used to for them, but also for yourself.

[Martin S]

I see what you mean: they "swing" a bit. I see that kind of swimming all the time in my Ageneiosus sp 3 (sorry to bring that up), so again, I wouldn't worry too much. Give them some time to adapt, see that they eat well and that the wounds heal. It's not only getting used to for them, but also for yourself.

OK, thanks Marc. Do you have any recomendations on suitable foods - of couse, apart from flake for the tetras, all my foods are sinking pellet/tablets, and frozen mysis/krill/bloodworm, with the occaisonal feeding of live river shrimp. I'm due to add some more feeders for the tetranematichthys, do you think they will join in and take live feeders as well?
Martin

[Marc van Arc]

Martin,
I really doubt these are piscivorous. Okay, they may swallow small fishes by accident, but I don't think they are going to compete with your Tetranematichthys.
Wrt food: I don't expect them to be bottom feeders, so the food has to float and/or sink slowly. What I usually do with new fishes is feed them (and of course all other inhabitants) after lights out. Most fishes react on flakes, but provide plenty.
Frozen foods (defrost before feeding; you know auchenipterids are pretty greedy and you don't want them to swallow lumps of ice with bloodworm - or any other flavour) also float for some time when put gently on the surface. To spread the food properly I take a handful and let the water inlet spread it for me. Mind you, don't get "bitten" for patience doesn't seem to be a characteristic of auchenipterids