My L002 have spawned; updated with pictures

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 27 Oct 2009, 03:37

Hi,
Wonderfull news, My L002 have spawned.
I'll note my observations later, but the immediate issue is that it is water change day. Should I change the water? There will be a 1.5 - 2.0 Degree C drop in the temperature.
It is my intention to leave the eggs with the male, even though the female has not left the cave yet. Partly because it is there first attempt, and I don't yet have the equipment set up to care for the eggs seperately, and partly because in 7 days I will be leaving the country for 2 weeks.

The water change question in the most pressing at this time.

Geoff

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 27 Oct 2009, 03:53

Nice one.

It would be nice to see this species get established in the New Zealand hobby, despite it being illegal!

Regarding the water change, do you think the fishes life or health will be seriously compromised by not changing the water?

Or, do you think the water change may disturb them resulting in the male booting out the eggs?

Both scenarios are unlikely, but I think there is greater chance of the latter happening, so I wouldn't change the water for the time being.

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 27 Oct 2009, 05:05

Thanks racoll,
I have decided not to change the water.
Not for the health of the other fish (it has only been 7 days since the last change, parameters are still within normal for this tank), and possibly not due to the eggs being rejected by the male but mainly due to what Haarvard theorised in this post http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 93#p171293 with his L-240, regarding the fluctuating temperature, contributing to the high mortality rate of the fry.

The female has now left the cave, and the male has gone back inside.
There are most likely less than 50 eggs. They appear to be larger than regular bristle nose eggs, and are more orange, yet duller in colour. As the female has only just left the cave I suspect that the male has not yet done his part.

Now I need to cook dinner, but I will update my observations over the last few days later tonight.

jac · Post by **jac** » 27 Oct 2009, 06:13

Congratulations

Did they spawn unexpectedly(?) or have you conditioned them to get them spawning? Eitherway, great job!

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 27 Oct 2009, 08:06

The story.....
30 days ago these fish were sharing a tank with the L142, but the L142 got moved to a new tank. Then I put my "left over" 2 male L204 in with the L002.
During this changeover I noticed that the substrate was a lot "dirtier" than I realised.
So I have been doing larger water changes than usual, and really concentrating on methodically working my way through the substrate.
2 weeks ago I decided that I could not ever see any of the fish, although there was one male that was interested in the only cave. So I took out all the decorations and placed all the wood around the edge of the tank leaving a "clearing" in the middle of the tank.
Because I have a whole month on vacation

but will be out of the country for the first 2 weeks, I was thinking that I could start the conditioning process 2 weeks ago, and then with the reduced water changes that they (all my tanks) will be getting while I am away, then it would be good to give the rainy season / large water change thing a go when I get back (3 weeks from today). Over the last 2 weeks the weather has been quite strange, with 2 or 3 really sunny days and then 3 or 4 days of cold, low pressure and rain. The rain and low pressure was co-inciding quite nicely with the 1 water change 1 week, and 2 the next week cycle that I have had this tank on. Saturday I did not water change as I was also trying to prepare them for the time I am away.
On Sunday I noticed that one of the L204 males was VERY VERY bristly, more so than the L204 males that are with the L204 females

This got me thinking that perhaps there was something going on

I checked the cave and there was the L002 male, but not quite like normal. He was not afraid of the light, and did not wriggle up into the cave.
Strange I thought, and had a closer look. Sure enough there was someone else in that there cave

Monday there was no change, still the male blocking someone in the cave............
Today I got home from work and the substrate outside the cave looked different. One way to describe it, I guess, would be that it looked like the floor outside the maternity ward at the local hospital. Worn down with lots of pacing back and forth

Another way to describe it would be a semicircle of the gravel had been "swished" out of the way with a tail. The male was outside the cave, and the female was looking out, and looking quite beweldered I must say.
The male then chased the female away, and after I got a quick look at the eggs he ducked back into the cave.

jac wrote:
Did they spawn unexpectedly(?) or have you conditioned them to get them spawning?

The answer is that I was attempting a conditioning process, and then the weather and the change in water changing thoroughness, and the fact that this is the worst possible timing...... So also unexpected at this time. Also these fish are quite young, so I was thinking that I would really be giving them a training "rainy season", so that they would get the idea for next year.

Parameters:
Temp: 27.8-28.0 C
Amonia, nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5-20
pH 6.9

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 27 Oct 2009, 10:37

Congratulations, and it's a very good sign that they have spawned. I have a trio of these (or one of it's close relatives in the Panaque genus - they are a bit hard to tell apart, IMO). No spawn yet.

--
Mats

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 27 Oct 2009, 18:05

Thanks Mats,

This morning the eggs have all gone.....
I did not have a great hope of the survival of the fry since I was not going to be here, so it is easier to loose the eggs, rather than the fry.
Perhaps the male did not like all the attention he was getting from the others in the tank. It seemed a little crowded around the cave vacinity this morning??
A promising year ahead perhaps........
Geoff

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 27 Oct 2009, 18:20

Next time I would let the L002 have the tank to themselves.
Since they are so rare in New Zealand you may want to artificially rear the next spawn then go natural thereafter.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 27 Oct 2009, 19:57

Practice makes perfect. Not to worry. They'll try again.

Amanda

Farid · Post by **Farid** » 27 Oct 2009, 23:11

hi geoff,
i still have 6 5cm L002 babies...

the decision was good not to change the water...soon as the eggs are lays i separate the eggs and if the maale is busy then it should be o.k. to change the water.

usually if the catfishes have eggs they get very nervous...neither they go back and forward...and start to hop in and out in their sidefins...ir they move in snd dont move at all...

my L002 spawned only 2 times ...i sold them not long time ago...

good luck!

farid

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 28 Oct 2009, 00:38

Thanks Larry, Amanda and Farid.

It was very exciting and also disapointing at the same time, because I am going away.
The best news is that I must be doing something right. I just need to find somewhere for the 2 male L204 as I do not think that a 5 male + 4 female mix will be best for the L204 since I am hopeing they will breed next.

Faird do you mean to take the eggs and the male? or just the eggs (and how are your L204 coming along

).
Geoff

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 28 Oct 2009, 04:09

Geoff,
If I am going to intervene in the natural brood care I go all the way. I remove the egg mass and place it in either a net breeder or place the eggs in a bare bottom, 4-1/2 gal tank with some methylene blue for the first few days but begin diluting it with water changes before the eggs hatch. I use water from the breeding tank initially then conditioned water for water changes. I prefer the tank method. It allows more space for the fry to spread out. I include an air stone and heater. Then after the fry are free swimming, I add some small pieces of wood so the fry have more surface area to search and hiding places.

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 28 Oct 2009, 04:12

Perhaps all is not lost.......
I have located the eggs
They are very fragile compaired to bristle nose eggs!
I have almost zero experience hand rearing eggs.
Previously with my bristle nose I have employed two techniques for eggs that have been ejected from the cave. Method 1 is just to leave them in the tank. Most hatch, and survive. Method 2 is to put those eggs in with another male that already has eggs. A bit less sucessful as I only have one male who will accept more eggs.

I have moved the eggs to a "fry catching" plastic floating tank thing, which I have in the main output current from the filter in the tank. The eggs are rocking slightly in the current as there are slits in the side of the plastic thing that is letting in water. There is about an inch of space under the tray that they are sitting on, and the bottom of the plastic container.

I have not encountered eggs this fragile, and as you can see I managed to break one.

There are two distinct egg "types" one appears to have a bright runny yolk and does not fill up the entire egg casing (Most of them) the other appears almost hard boiled, with the yolk less bright and filling up the entire egg casing.

What should I do now? I am unsure if an airstone is necessary (due to the current), and the only one that is handy will mean they are moved out of the current.

racoll you may be the only one "on line" in this timezone.

Geoff

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 28 Oct 2009, 04:21

apistomaster wrote:Geoff,
If I am going to intervene in the natural brood care I go all the way. I remove the egg mass and place it in either a net breeder or place the eggs in a bare bottom, 4-1/2 gal tank with some methylene blue for the first few days but begin diluting it with water changes before the eggs hatch. I use water from the breeding tank initially then conditioned water for water changes. I prefer the tank method. It allows more space for the fry to spread out. I include an air stone and heater. Then after the fry are free swimming, I add some small pieces of wood so the fry have more surface area to search and hiding places.

Thanks Larry (I must have been posting as you were...)
I guess I am stuck with the "net breeder" for the moment. Not sure how many of the eggs will be viable.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 28 Oct 2009, 04:34

Well you have been lucky finding the eggs and getting them in isolation. What you are doing is fine and the viable eggs will show signs of development very fast and probably hatch in 5-6 days. The larvae will look more like an egg with a tail at first but they should look like little plecos by the 10-12th days. Probably still with a small yolk sack but they should do fine now that you isolated them. They must be very fresh if they are more delicate to handling damage than you are accustomed to.

I elevate the openings of my caves to help reduce the accidental ejection of eggs. It was probably due to inexperience on the male's part but every little thing can help reduce ejections.

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 28 Oct 2009, 05:15

apistomaster wrote:Well you have been lucky finding the eggs and getting them in isolation. ............
They must be very fresh if they are more delicate to handling damage than you are accustomed to.

I elevate the openings of my caves to help reduce the accidental ejection of eggs. It was probably due to inexperience on the male's part but every little thing can help reduce ejections.

Awesome.
The eggs will be no more than 30 hours old, I would estimate. I am pleased I found the eggs as yesterday was my mothers birthday, so it was a nice present to find the fish had spawned, and I'll never forget that date.

I noticed the eggs as I looked through a hole in the wood. Another 30 seconds and they would have gone up the gravel vac!
The cave was the first slate cave that I made, and I think that the only flaw in the cave is that I have the smooth side on the inside, so there is nothing for the eggs to grip onto. Elevating the cave opening is a great idea.
It is a great pity that I will miss most of their early development (assuming that they survive). This time next week I will be having a beer on the waterfront in Sydney. I am very pleased that my fish minder / water changer person is a far more experienced breeder than me, so they will be in safe hands.
Thanks again

Geoff

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 28 Oct 2009, 07:23

Cool.

I think you have done the right thing Geoff. The plastic trap looks good.

I think the "hard boiled" ones are unfertilised eggs. If you can remove them easily, do so, but if its difficult I wouldn't risk damaging other eggs.

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 28 Oct 2009, 08:37

Thanks racoll,
There are only 5 or 6 of the hard boiled ones. Two have detached from the cluster and the others are on the outside of the cluster.
Once I can see some sort of activity in the eggs then I will know for sure which ones are the unfertilised ones, then the outer shells may also be stronger so I will be more comfortable removing them.
What you say makes sense though as the lighter coloured BN eggs are the unfertile ones.
Geoff

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 01 Nov 2009, 22:29

Well...... I am not sure if I would call this a success or a failure, but this morning there are 2 eggs that have grown heads and little wiggling tails.

There are only 7 eggs left in total.
I have learnt a lot.
Geoff

jac · Post by **jac** » 02 Nov 2009, 06:25

Well, I think you have made great progress

Getting them happy and then spawn for you was the hardest part I think. Now you "only" have to figure out the best way to get the eggs and baby's up and swimming

Managing to get 2 baby's and keeping them alive is great! Always better than non at all

So congratulations again and keep up the good work

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 02 Nov 2009, 21:56

There are now 5 wrigglers and no more eggs.

Tonight I am going overseas on vacation, so my trust will be entirely with the friend who is looking after the fishroom.

Geoff

Farid · Post by **Farid** » 03 Nov 2009, 01:12

hi geoff,
congrats

i always take the whole cave incl. the male. remember where the cave was. then you have to place it back to the same place. sowhen the male comes out after a weeks time he knows it's area and the females around

i leave it separated until the first babies come out of the cave...usually yolksacks with a wiggleing tale. after that moment i give it two more days (more babies will hatch in that time). then i wash the cave out...to that all of the fry of some left eggs drop out...

then the male is alone in the cave i place it back to it's place in the tank

(this how i do it)...

the 204 are now about 3cm! doing very well. i even missed that spawn that time ...so the male did a very well job on it's first time!!!

farid

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 17 Nov 2009, 21:20

Back from holiday.
There is one 1.5 -2 cm baby left, although others may have escaped back into the main tank.

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 01 Dec 2009, 22:56

I found one more inside the main tank...

Here are a couple of pictures of the little guy....

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Dec 2009, 23:10

Ah, oh! Very cute.

--
Mats

J Bluto · Post by **J Bluto** » 02 Dec 2009, 00:35

Geoff,
I let nature, as much as possible, take its course...
I had 2 males guarding and using caves to spawn in ---in the same tank along with 1 altum angel and a pair of gold angels,some driftwood and 2 large amazon swords , gravel and lots of air.. i never bothered a thing and look out--- the females went wild.. 18 months later i have raised over 300 fry . give the Dads a try...
Jay

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 02 Dec 2009, 01:27

Hi Jay,
My preference is to let the males do their own thing, but in this case the eggs had already been evicted from the cave, so it was more of a rescue job. There are 4 male L002 and 2 male L204 in this tank along with the 2 female L002, so it gets a bit agressive at times. I am putting a new tank in for the excess males.......

Were yours L002?

Thanks

J Bluto · Post by **J Bluto** » 02 Dec 2009, 01:42

Hey Geoff,
Yes they were L-002
Oh a rescue , i see,-- yes when you get a chance to separate them put your entire colony together with plenty of caves and enjoy
Jay

jac · Post by **jac** » 02 Dec 2009, 06:34

They are very cute Geoff

krazyGeoff · Post by **krazyGeoff** » 02 Jan 2010, 02:56

This time the male has done a much better job!

Here are some pictures of the new batch. These eggs were laid on 10 December:
First half of batch

Second half

They have much more colour than the parents.
Cheers

Geoff

My L002 have spawned; updated with pictures

My L002 have spawned; updated with pictures

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