Synodontis eupterus - and other Syno?

[I Prefer Dogs]

I have a lovely Synodontis eupterus is my Malawi Tank. I've had him for about a year now, and he is about 6" or so in size.

I was thinking of adding another Syno or two, but don't know if this would be acceptable? Would I be able to mix Synos or is it a bad idea from the start?

Either way, I'm happy as he is quite the character in the Malawi tank and provides a nice contrast with the Cichlids.

Thanks.

[MatsP]

Synodontis eupterus comes from rivers in Africa, not Lake Malawi, so it should really have different water conditions than a Lake Malawi fish. They are quite adaptable, so they will do quite well in hard alkaline water that reflects Lake Malawi, but it's not the ideal for this type of fish. They can be kept in groups as well as singly.

Most synos do get along fairly well in a group - some don't. Given that there is a fairly large number of species in this genus, it's probably better to keep it generic, than to try to sort out which can be kept in groups and which don't do well in groups. Many of these are adaptable to alkaline/hard water like that of Lake Malawi and Lake Tanganyika.

There is a single known Synodontis species from Lake Malawi, so if you want to be biotope correct, you should have

Synodontis njassae

. They are not the easiest fish to find.

There are other Synos that would be most suitable in a Lake Malawi tank, but not quite as biotope correct, Lake Tanganyika Synos.

So: As a summary, you probably should try to find a Rift Lake Syno to match the fish and water conditions that you (should) have in the tank. But there are several other that can be considered.

--
Mats

[I Prefer Dogs]

My PH is 7.5 which I believe is perfectly fine for these fish.

All my cichlids are tank bred specimens that have been raised and kept in water PH of 7-7.5 all their life.

My syno was raised locally too and has existed in a PH of 7.5 all its life as well. It has never not been housed with Malawi Cichlids since it was very, very small.

I don't see any conflict of interest in terms of water quality whatsover. Lake Malawi conditions for Lake Malawi cichlid only strictly apply to wild caught specimens. It is far more important to keep conditions stable than achieve the 'supposed' correct PH.

[worton[pl]]

Hello I prefer Dogs (nice nickname btw.),

what you are saying is mostly true but I hope you have understood MatsP arguments?

Most fish will adapty to conditions far away from their natural and considered as perfect but usually we(hobbysts) try to mimic natural conditions of fish as much as possible for keeping them as happy as possible ( we owe them this since we took them from their natural environment, yes parents of your fish also were taken from natural environment). So if you want a Synodontis euptera you will buy it anyway (what is a point of starting a topic then?) but you should be aware that even if very adaptable fish it will be much happier in different setup (it is not only up to water hardness and Ph) than your chichlids. So why don't you try out some synos that will be perfectly happy in rocky habitat with hard water as readily available S. lucipinnis or S. multipunctata (which have spectacular way of breeding)?

Regards.

[MatsP]

Let me first say that I'm not saying you should change anything, just explaining that different fish come from different water conditions, and whilst many fish are quite adaptable, conditions that are ideal for the fish are not the same as "what they can withstand".

My PH is 7.5 which I believe is perfectly fine for these fish.

The pH of riverine (that is, non-rift-lake) synos is around pH 6, rather than around 8 that is the pH in rift-lakes. But as I said originally, S. euptera is one of those fish that is pretty much happy as long as there is (enough) water around the fish, no matter what the water parameters are.

All my cichlids are tank bred specimens that have been raised and kept in water PH of 7-7.5 all their life.

Fine. Can't argue with that, as I have no idea where your cichlids came from.

My syno was raised locally too and has existed in a PH of 7.5 all its life as well. It has never not been housed with Malawi Cichlids since it was very, very small.

Whilst I believe S. eupterus is bred in captivity, I doubt very much that it was bred in England, or in water that resembles English water. I don't know (again, I don't know where the fish came from, but I do know where they USUALLY come from - these fish are bred in large numbers in Southeast Asia). It may have spent a large portion of it's life so far (at 6" I expect it's around 3-5 years old, maybe a bit more, and still has at least 10-20 years of life "left") in your local water. And that's fine for this fish, I'd say.

I don't see any conflict of interest in terms of water quality whatsover. Lake Malawi conditions for Lake Malawi cichlid only strictly apply to wild caught specimens. It is far more important to keep conditions stable than achieve the 'supposed' correct PH.

Yes, I agree that successive breeding will make the species adapt to different conditions than their wild species.

But I still think it's a good idea to choose species that are suitable for the conditions that you keep.

Here is a list of the Syno species that "like" pH 7.5.

--
Mats

[I Prefer Dogs]

I think we are getting slightly off topic here.

Question was:

Can Syno Eupterus happily co-exist with other Synodontis species or will it cause problems?

[MatsP]

Can Syno Eupterus happily co-exist with other Synodontis species or will it cause problems?

Yes and no. There are 115 "species" of

Synodontis

in the Cat-eLog. Many of those are fine to mix with each other, including S. euptera and many other Syno species. But there are some that do not mix well with other species, or that doesn't even mix well with it's own kind.

Oh, and the other thing I should point out is that there are unfortunately a lot of pretty-looking Synos that are man-made hybrids - mixes between two different natural species - they look great, but I'd say we should avoid keeping them if possible.

--
Mats

[I Prefer Dogs]

Thanks Mats.

Species I was looking at are:

Synodontis multipunctatus
Syno Petricola

However, I understand these require groups?

....

ps. my view on my Syno Eupterus is that he has been in a PH of 7.5 nearly all his life. He has alwaus lived with Malawi Cichlids from when he first went home. It would be more damaging for him to go back to a lower PH than something he has been used to for many years. All my reading suggest that Eupterus have a PH of anywhere between 6.0 and 7.5. If these are the guidlines I don't think it is 'what they can withstand' as you suggested. If the guidlines said 6-7 and I was keeping in 7.5 and I said he was fine, I think that simply surving would be a valid argument but not in this case.

[MatsP]

Yes, S. euptera is fine at pH 7.5, but it's natural habitat is rivers in Africa, which generally are soft, acidic water at pH 6 or so. And it wouldn't harm the fish, as long as the transition is fairly slow. But as I said earlier, I'm not saying you should change anything...

Yes, S. multipunctata, S. petricola and S. lucipinnis are best kept in groups. I include S. lucipinnis here as it's most often sold as S. petricola in the shops [sometimes called S. petricola "dwarf"], as it was only described as a species a few years ago (late 2006, I think). And yes, they will be fine with other Synos [at least with S. euptera - obviously, if you keep S. angelica that is one of the more agressive/territorial species, it won't be a good idea].

--
Mats

[I Prefer Dogs]

Yes, S. euptera is fine at pH 7.5, but it's natural habitat is rivers in Africa, which generally are soft, acidic water at pH 6 or so.

--
Mats

But is that really true? In all my literature and info on the net, it is said that S. euptera exists in a number of rivers and tributaries from Central Africa with a range of 6.0-7.5.

[MatsP]

It indeed has a wide range, and the pH in those locations will definitely vary - in fact the Cat-eLog indicaes 5.6 to 7.5 as the acceptable pH - and your fish being (most likely) captive bred will probably have been bred in water that is closer to 7 than 5.6 - simply because it's hard to keep aquaria stable at pH 5.6.

--
Mats

[I Prefer Dogs]

I'm starting to lean against another Cat to be honest.

The tank is 4x2x2(ish) bow front and holds around 350L.

It is heavily rocked with plenty of caves and PVCp pipes hidden about.

If I went for the above two species I'd have to get a group and I don't know if the tank is big enough with the Eupterus already in there...

What would be you recommendation for a another single Syno considering the tank size, water parameters and tank mates. What is minimum group size for the Petricola and Multis?

Thanks for the info it is much appreciated.

[MatsP]

Well, a group would be a minimum of 3 fish, but 5 or more is an even better number. Since we don't know exactly what size (or how many) your other fish are, it's hard to say what stock you could add.

That tank itself sounds like ideal for some of the smaller Rift Lake Synos like the ones that you've suggested.

--
Mats

[Richard B]

Whatever species are being considered, can i just interject & say with synos, 2 is always a poor choice in terms of numbers - invariably one will always be superior to the other & the dominance exhibited can be (but is not always) catastrophic (no pun intended - geddit )

Odd numbers always seem to work out better in situations like this. What sort of malawi cichlids are they - ie mbuna or peacock types? Partially dependant upon this, i would suggest there are 3 options as the tank size & decor does allow for more than 1 more addition

a) - add 2 (or more), euptera

b) - get rid of the euptera, & introduce a group of 5 multipunctata or grandiops or lucipinnis

c) - add 2 more riverine synos, 1 each of a diiferent species which need to be carefully considered & depends somewhat on what the cichlids are? (for example if they are mbuna they need to be different species selected than those that could co-habit with peacocks). This third option is a tricky balance to achieve...