Male or female L134?

[Nathaliec]

Hello everybody,

I'm new at this forum I'm Nathalie, 20 years old.

We have nine L134's and we are trying to get some eggs from them!

But I have a question...

One is very fat.. but I had a discussion about the sex!

He or she has a little bit a hairt tail... but is fat like a women.

What do you think? Male of female? It's the left one...

http://foto-uploaden.nl/img/6/cott6b3.jpg

Right one is a male... but the left... hmmm!

http://foto-uploaden.nl/img/4/xmnkgmj.jpg

I hope you will have an answer!

[Nathaliec]

Sorry about that...

[apistomaster]

Looks like female to me. Females tend to make less use of caves and when they are in one the are usually sharing it with a male. This is not 100% effective method of sexing them but is a behavioral tendency of females of L134 and Hypancistrus spp. It works best if there are fewer caves than the total number of fish. Try about 2/3 as many caves as there are L134.

[Nathaliec]

Looks like female to me. Females tend to make less use of caves and when they are in one the are usually sharing it with a male. This is not 100% effective method of sexing them but is a behavioral tendency of females of L134 and Hypancistrus spp. It works best if there are fewer caves than the total number of fish. Try about 2/3 as many caves as there are L134.

Oke thanks for your information.

Our females are lying also in the caves...but without a men.

I also thought it is a female but I didnt no it for sure because of the hairy tail.

Yesterday evening she was lying for five minutues in the cave next to hers. That was with a men. You could see him also in the picture. He doesnt worry about it and it looks like its okay for him but after a few minutes she was already gone. The whole evening she was in the front of his cave...

We have 11 caves for nine L134's. In your opion its better to have less caves?

[Bas Pels]

Perhaps less caves helps the fishes meeting each other, but I would say - too much shelter is impossible from a wellbeing point of view

As the gravid female remains near the cave, she might be thinking this male over as a mate. You might have eggs in a few days, I hope

[Nathaliec]

Perhaps less caves helps the fishes meeting each other, but I would say - too much shelter is impossible from a wellbeing point of view

As the gravid female remains near the cave, she might be thinking this male over as a mate. You might have eggs in a few days, I hope

Okay, thank you Bas!

Another question to you... do you think the left L134 in the picture is a female?

Last evening she was still hanging the whole evening for the cave of the men...she went in for only five minutes...

[MatsP]

Can I just butt in on the "how many caves discussion". Whilst having fewer caves may well force the female to go into the cave with a male, I don't think it matters for breeding. In nature, I'm quite convinced caves are plentiful - perhaps not "good caves", but there are certainly a lot of hollows and good hiding spaces. And the females and males do find each other there, don't they?

In my P. maccus tank, there are quite a few different caves - but I've seen the male and one of the females try to squeeze into the same cave several times now [one such occasion is in the video on the

Panaque maccus

data sheet :bragging: (admittedly, I've yet to see eggs in their current tank, never mind fry, but I'm sure with time it will happen) ]. So if both male and female are "willing", then it will happen, no matter how many caves there are - I'm 100% sure of that.

--
Mats

[Nathaliec]

Can I just butt in on the "how many caves discussion". Whilst having fewer caves may well force the female to go into the cave with a male, I don't think it matters for breeding. In nature, I'm quite convinced caves are plentiful - perhaps not "good caves", but there are certainly a lot of hollows and good hiding spaces. And the females and males do find each other there, don't they?

In my P. maccus tank, there are quite a few different caves - but I've seen the male and one of the females try to squeeze into the same cave several times now [one such occasion is in the video on the

Panaque maccus

data sheet :bragging: (admittedly, I've yet to see eggs in their current tank, never mind fry, but I'm sure with time it will happen) ]. So if both male and female are "willing", then it will happen, no matter how many caves there are - I'm 100% sure of that.

--
Mats

I think the same about it! In nature they do find each other!
So... what do you think about the left one? Also a female?

[MatsP]

I have no experience with these fish, so I can't say for sure.

Generally, it's not THAT hard to sex the fish if you look a them as a group against a light-coloured background - then the hairy caudal peduncle of males and the wider girth of the female should be pretty obvious. It is much harder to say "is this a female" or "is this a male" with one or two individual fishes.

If all the fishes look nearly the same, then you either have all the same sex or they are not ready.

--
Mats

[pureplecs]

All of my females stay in the caves for the most part unlike some of my hyps. The only easy way to tell my males from females are the very fuzzy tails as Matt mentioned above. I have heard of others claim to have had females with some fuzziness, but not nearly as fuzzy as the males get. I have some pics in the cat-e-log that shows a male and then pics of the caudal peduncle of a male and female if you want to check them out... As was mentioned above, if they are not mature then it is nearly impossible to sex them.

[Nathaliec]

All of my females stay in the caves for the most part unlike some of my hyps. The only easy way to tell my males from females are the very fuzzy tails as Matt mentioned above. I have heard of others claim to have had females with some fuzziness, but not nearly as fuzzy as the males get. I have some pics in the cat-e-log that shows a male and then pics of the caudal peduncle of a male and female if you want to check them out... As was mentioned above, if they are not mature then it is nearly impossible to sex them.

Okay, at our place the females are also most of the time in the caves. Only one is very active especially when its dinner time.

I looked at them again... and Im sure about two males. One you could see in the picture on the right at the second picture. Thats a male for sure. That two males have another shape of the body. It look lika a 'V'. The females are more like this and they look a fat like they have some eggs!: Their shape is morge like this: '()'. That two males have a very fuzzy tail.

Im sure about five females. The dont have any fuzziness at all. Im still wishpering about the one left on the first picture. If i look at the body I think a female. If I look to her tail i think, it could also be a male!

Another one is hidden in a cave so I can not see if it is a female or a male.

[apistomaster]

I only provide one cave for each of my males and wood for additional cover so I am not providing all of the vacant caves many of you are. How's that working for you? I have about 150 juveniles between 1-1/2 and 2 inches I raised this season. I only have 2 males and 3 females in the breeding colony.
I kept about 30 from last year's season as future breeding stock. They don't have caves so they cluster under the sponge filter bases or scraps of wood. My largest are over 2-3/4 inches and I believe some can be sexed now but I would have to catch them and put them in my white plastic dish pan to tell.

[Nathaliec]

I only provide one cave for each of my males and wood for additional cover so I am not providing all of the vacant caves many of you are. How's that working for you? I have about 150 juveniles between 1-1/2 and 2 inches I raised this season. I only have 2 males and 3 females in the breeding colony.
I kept about 30 from last year's season as future breeding stock. They don't have caves so they cluster under the sponge filter bases or scraps of wood. My largest are over 2-3/4 inches and I believe some can be sexed now but I would have to catch them and put them in my white plastic dish pan to tell.

Nice Nice

That are a lot of little one's!

We dont have eggs yet, but we have them now only four months.
Your season is from February tot Septembre? I hope that my season will start at February then! I also have wood for additional cover. I dont know if it works very good with a lot of caves. I could understand that if you have less caves, the females will go in quicker because there are no caves left anymore. But if they want to spawn... I think they will also do it if they have a lot of caves. I have seen some other people with a lot of caves in Holland ass well and they had also some breedings. In nature they also have a lot of places to hide.

So i dont know what to do yet. In about four weeks I will get some stones, then i will change my caves in a diffrent way. I think I will try it first with more caves. If it doesnt work I think i will change it into less caves.


So i dont know whats te best. Fist

[apistomaster]

I don't know if there is a "best" way to set up a pleco breeding tank but I can tell you why I do it the way I do.
First, I do want each male to have it's own cave. The males always chose one as their headquarters.
Secondly, I believe the females are very competitive amongst themselves for the privilege of spawning.
Not having caves but some wood for cover, does provide the females some refuge but they really want to share a cave with a male. I believe my method helps to keep the females' instincts focused on their breeding imperative. So that's my theory behind what I do but it still was just over 2 years before my wild fish first began spawning. However, they were grown out in a wild Discus display tank for most of that time. It was about 4-5 months after being set up in their own breeding tank that they began to spawn. They were set up in late fall so that apparently was the beginning of what seems to be my breeder L134 rest period. They had that time to become well acclimated.
I use a lot of aeration from an air stone and a sponge filter plus another sponge filter driven by a 160 gph/600lph MaxiJet 600 power head in only a 20 Long, 12 X 12 X 30 inches aquarium(2.54 cm = 1 inch). I use soft water during their breeding season 50-60 ppm TDS but just tap water with a TDS of 340 ppm in their resting season. Temperature is kept at 84*F although it some times reaches 88*F during the hottest part of the summer for a week or two. Aeration is very critical during the peak temperatures. So I guess I do simulate a wet and dry season of sorts.
I feed them mainly earth worm sticks and frozen blood worms but I also treat them to live black worms in a deep dish bowl. The bowl keeps the currents from blasting most the worms out and into the 1/2 inch of sand. The fry especially like to feed on the worm slime and scrape into their skin from a quite early stage. I also maintain a colony of Cherry Shrimp in this breeding set up.

[pureplecs]

Larry,
Thanks for sharing your experience... I will have to take out all of the caves except for my three males, what you said totally makes sense and if nothing else it is worth a shot!!

[Nathaliec]

Apistomaster,

Your story sounds very good and logic.

I think we have to do the same. Im not sure about my males. I have nine L134's.

Five are for sure female, 2 are for sure male. One is dont know (from the picture) and another one doesnt show itself. Always lying in the cave... maybe that looks like a male.

So what do you think about the number of caves? four?

[apistomaster]

Yes, I would try 4 caves.

[Nathaliec]

Tonight i have to refresh some water so i think i will bring the caves back to four then.

Another problem.... how can i get the L134's out of their caves?

[apistomaster]

Getting them out of caves can be hard. Some will shake out but others need to be placed with the opening in water until they get so desperate from lack of water to breathe that they finally fall out. It is hard to get many of them to let go but eventually they have to give up.

[Nathaliec]

Okay,

I will try it tonight!

Hope it will work

I will tell you the story after it

[Nathaliec]

OKay, now i have removed some caves!

The L134 were very quick out of the caves

There are lying still 5 caves in the water. I thougt to see that there was one male more.

So i think about 4 males and 5 females. Of course im not sure about it but its just a thougt!

We will see what tomorrow brings!!

[Nathaliec]

Some womens are trying to get in the caves with a men....

but they dont like it very much!!!

Its more like a small fight...

[Nathaliec]

It looks like everybody has found a place now

5 L134's are in de caves...

And four are in the wood or somewhere else.

Im still not sure for the male and female rate

[aldare]

I would leave the caves there and observe all the fish for few weeks. Males preferring being in the cave doesn't mean they are there still and females preferring staying outside doesn't mean they are not there at all. All is about how much they do or don't in longer time period. Together with the fuzziness of the back half of the fish body and overall shape should give certain degree of confidence.
I would say rate all three factors by 1-10 and then do the average of these values. The result is the probability of what sex you own.

f.e. for my 2 L134:
first is 95% of time in the cave, 90% fuzzy and the body 80% triangle = 88% male
second is 100% of time outside the cave, 20% fuzzy and the body is 90% rounded = 90% female

If caving is in strong contrast with other two factors, you can forget it. Some females are really 100% time in the cave (as one of my L015). What I think is the way they do it. Females are either inside or outside, looking for food. Males are often half-way out, showing their tail and possibly attracting females. In that case the way they do it could be used for rating.

You will hardly find 100% fuzzy female and the same is with the shape of the body.

Of course, the fuzziness and shape rating should be based on all available pictures you can acquire elsewhere on the internet.
And if you get 100%, believe me, it is wrong. You can't be sure until they get spawned.

[Nathaliec]

Look what happend in two/three months:

First:



After 2/3 months:

[Nathaliec]

[quote="aldare"]I would leave the caves there and observe all the fish for few weeks. Males preferring being in the cave doesn't mean they are there still and females preferring staying outside doesn't mean they are not there at all. All is about how much they do or don't in longer time period. Together with the fuzziness of the back half of the fish body and overall shape should give certain degree of confidence.
I would say rate all three factors by 1-10 and then do the average of these values. The result is the probability of what sex you own.

Aldare, sounds very interesting but also little bit difficult!

I have to do that at night because if my L134 are very active at that moment. Maybe i will try to do that, thanks for you information.

[jac]

Seeing this interesting picture progress of the fish I would say it is a male.
As I said on the other forum, you need to take time and patience. Overall you haven't had the fish for very long and most people here had the fish for at least a year or two before they spawned.

How fish look like when you buy them does not say they look like that after some months. As I explained to you, males will sometimes lose there odontodes growht because they have to esstablish a new pecking order, who will be the new boss. This male you show has done exactly that.

Subdominant males don't have odonthodes growht or very little. And may grow a lot of odonthodes now. Females will appear to be subdominant males.
That is what @Aldare maybe is trying to tell you. If you think you know for sure......you will be wrong afterall.

My group has turned out with 3 certain males, 5 certain females and 3 I don't know. This has taken 8 months to develop. One of my WC males is showing some interest in a particular female. Only with a succesfull spawn my mind will be at ease that I have a breeding pair.

Heavy feeding is not always the way to go. My advice (as you know) is don't try to hard. Give the fish time to get comfortable and get used to your way of doing things. It won't be the first time fish have spawn when you actually forgot about them. L134 are very sensative to overfeeding and will die due to stressed guts. Be aware about this, it would be a shame.....

Patience is the most difficult factor of breeding fish

[Nathaliec]

So the male at the first picture was very dominant... but now after some months he is subdominant?
He's still a man but not the new 'boss'...?

And you said that females can become subdominant males? How can a female become a male...?

I understand about the feeding... But how do I know or im feeding to much or to less?

[MatsP]

No, males do not become females and females do not become males. But subdominant males look (almost) the same as females - the only (possibly) difference is the females are "fatter" - but that's only if they are heavy with eggs. If the females are not heavy with eggs, then it's hard to tell them apart.

--
Mats

[Nathaliec]

Okay,

happy to hear that! I was almost thinking that i was crazy with the male and female change

But this male... from the picture became less dominant in this group? Because he has little odontodes now and he had much bigger odontodes....?