Sexing L204: help needed

[Kaleva]

Hi!

I have bought a group of 4 adult L204 plecos and I need to determine their sex. All plecos are about 3 y.o. and 10-12 cm. Two of them are clearly males with long tail odontodes. But other two have no odontodes but it seems that they have genital papillaes (I would say the same as male's papillae on one of the pictures on L204 information page: http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=8357).

So sexing of these two guys is a bit confusing to me. Can anybody help me with that?
Here are some pictures (click to see full-size):



Thanks in advance!

[DJ-don]

it would be easier to sex them (for me ) if u got a birds eey view of them because u can judge them by body shape

[krazyGeoff]

So sexing of these two guys is a bit confusing to me. Can anybody help me with that?

Hi Kaleva,
Welcome to the confusing world of sexing L204.
I would have thought that at 3 years, and 10-12 cm (SL) they would not be trying to trick you anymore, and it would be quite obvious from the odontodes on the back half of the body.

Head shape seems to be the best for these guys, and there are a few folks who will watch with interest this thread.

However as DJ-don said:

it would be easier to sex them (for me ) if u got a birds eey view of them because u can judge them by body shape

So more pictures would be a great help

Thanks

[Kaleva]

So more pictures would be a great help
Thanks

OK, I can take more pictures later today.

But aren't those genitale papillaes a clear sign of males? Or females have them too?

[jac]

Hi,

I for one am very interrested in sexing any L204. I've got 6 of them now and I find it extremely difficult to sex them correct. I had 3. Tried to sex them, we (PC members) came to the conclusion they were both sex. Now they are all males All showing odontodes growth. Now I've got 3 more, supposed to be females. I've looked at them for an hour before buying. Now I see 2 of them sitting inside caves so yet again I'm not sure if they were females afther all But I shall see, just have to wait.

In your pictures of the 2 L204 I have spotted some differences. In the first picture it looks like this fish has some odontodes growth on it's tail. Aslo the lower fins show more pointed at the ends. The fish may show fatter then the other one but I guess the first fish is also male.
The second fish shows no odontodes growth on the tail and the fins look to be more rounded. Maybe this fish will be a female.

But as I said, it is extremely hard. Only a well settled group will breed and only then you will know for sure you have both male and female.

I would really like to see a picture of both male and female shown from above and close-up to compare to other fish to help sex them. Maybe some one who's breeding succesfully would like to share some pictures. Farid??? Anyone else???

Good luck with your L204's

[jac]

Sorry Geoff, reading old threads again I missed yours. I see you have posted some pictures of male and female differences.
Are you having any luck on spawning with your new setup??

[Kaleva]

OK, here are some additional pictures (click to view fill-size):

Smaller one (7,5 cm SL)



Bigger one (9 cm SL)

[DJ-don]

i would say the top is male but not sure about botton picture

[krazyGeoff]

OK, here are some additional pictures (click to view fill-size):

Hi Kaleva,
I think that they are both males.

This is a female:


See how the body shape is quite different..

Are you having any luck on spawning with your new setup??

Hi jac,
I am away on holiday soon, so I was going to wait until mid-late November to try and condition the girls.
I am not totally happy with the tank setup yet, and only one of the males is taking any notice of the caves. Also I am not sure if I am happy with the 3 male - 4 female mix.

Cheers

Geoff

[Kaleva]

Hi Kaleva,
I think that they are both males.

This is a female:
See how the body shape is quite different..

OK, but what about odontodes? I think 3 y.o. males should have already grown them?

And another question about genitale papillaes. Do females have those?

[jac]

Quoted out of an article of Shane's world by Janne Ekstrom:

Their genital papilla look a little different when compared to other genera in the family Loricariidae, both sexes' genital papilla have a rounded out curved shape. The females is oval and the males is more rounded and blunt. The best way to start on a breeding project is with a smaller group of 5-6 individuals and grow them up together, when they have reached sexual maturity all males except the most dominant male should be removed from the group. The most dominant male is also that male with the most developed odontodes on the body, a breeding group with 1 male together with 2-3 females is a suitable composition.

Have you read the article? It's very interresting.
Hope this helps

[krazyGeoff]

Hi,
Based on my experience of participating in every discussion on L204 sexing that I can find, and the many many photos I have looked at, and the 9 fish that I have, I am going to go to a more consertive approach for calling the sex on these guys.
I am going to limit myself to 3 options.
Male
Female
Possibly male
The reason for this is that there seems to be a lot less females out there than males. We all want to be able to attempt to breed these guys, so we may be looking for any excuse to call one a female.
The photo I posted will be the one that I use as my female "marker"

OK, but what about odontodes? I think 3 y.o. males should have already grown them?

And another question about genitale papillaes. Do females have those?

I think jac got the genitale papillaes covered.

I have seen two situations where the 3+ y.o. male had no odontodes.
The first was when this was the only fish of that species and size. The second was in a group of 4 fish, where the least dominant male, showed no signs of odontodes.
Also I have heard that the odontodes can "fall off" under stress conditions.
I hope this helps
Geoff

[pureplecs]

I had a nice group of these, they all had odontadotes on the cheeks and similar body shape, the only way we could tell the sex is that the males had very fuzzy tail region and the females did not.

[Kaleva]

Today I've got one more. Here are some photos.
What do you think about its sex?

[pureplecs]

Given the fuzziness by the tail, I call male.

[krazyGeoff]

Male.