Telling the difference between L144 and A. cf. Cirrhosus

[PimHasAPond]

Hi,

New to this forum but not this website, i have been puzzled about a thing.
I have acquired some Ancitrus Catfish and i wondered which it where.

Looking at the different pictures it struck me that one of them would be either L144 or Ancitrus cf. Cirrhosus albino.

Problem is... I think the pictures on the database resemble EXACTLY the same catfish. Can anyone confirm to me that either one of the information is incorrect and that the pictures shown do belong to another species? If so... please clarify which one should be L144 and which of them really is the A. cf. Cirrhosus.

One of the pictures which really made me puzzled:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=7812 (look at the location of the picture in the database: A. cf. Cirrhosus)

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=4421 (this is told to be a L144, but is it?)

Beside this question, i would like to know what cf. stands for in the A. cf. Cirrhosus.
Thanks a lot for your time you put into this!
Greets,
Pim

[apistomaster]

I personally do not think there is any difference between L144 and Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus.

[Suckermouth]

The "cf" indicates that this A. cf. cirrhosus pretty much looks similar to A. cirrhosus, but has not been confirmed to be the same.

See under "In the system of binomial nomenclature" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.

[amiidae]

eye color ?

[DJ-don]

l144's albino that is have black eyes while the cf. cirrhosus albino has red eyes

[Suckermouth]

If eye color is the only thing different between the two, it is not enough of a distinction if you want to consider them truly different species... Of course, L numbers are not species definitions, so it's enough of a distinction to tell them apart. If eye color is the only difference, L144 could possible be a form of A. cf. cirrhosus called "leucistic". In leucism, eye color is normal, as opposed to albinism in which eyes are red.

[Bijn]

the eye color is different,

and yes, in leucism the eye color is normal, but in leucism there is no yellow pigment, so they should be much paler then. In my opinion the L144 is surely no leucistic fish.

another difference is that the albino cf. cirrhosus has spots all over the body (similar to the normal ones), the L144 is plain yellow.

[Amberdawn]

I have done some research into the L144. The commonly available L144, which is a yellow/orange fish with pigmented eyes is a color morph of the common aquarium strain BN A. cf cirrhosus. The reason it has an L# is that at one point there was a separate species of Ancistrus of that color that predated the color morph of the common BN and the two got lumped together because they looked so much alike. That original species I understand is rare now and if you live anywhere other than Europe and have an L144 it is the color morph of the common BN and even in Europe that is probably what you have and not the original species L144.
Visually the only difference between the "L144" color morph of the common BN and an albino BN is the eye color as has already been stated. One note on albino BN though. I have 3 young adult albino BN that are solid yellow with no white spotting. The common BN has more than one form of albino and not all of the forms show white spotting.

[apistomaster]

To add to amberdawn:
Even a different diet can cause an albino common Bushy nose appear more pink or more orange pink.
So a blue eye leucistic form of a common Bushynose is not enough to call them different species. Since the L-number system is an ad hoc identification system not really based on a scientific description, I suppose one is free to continue to call leucistic blue eyed bushy nose, L144. Even the described Hypancistrus zebra has several L-numbers so one is free to use whichever number that you please but that does not make them different species. If there ever was a different Ancistrus species that was selectively bred for the leucistic blue eyed trait, any distinction appears to have been lost now that all the various fin and color forms have been hybridized,about all that can be said is that the aquarium strains do not represent any specific species. The captive population is now an amalgamation of inter species hybridization, perhaps, and hybrids between many phenotypes, certainly.
I have only seen one practical reason for continuing to call one variety L144. That is to exact a higher price for one common bushy nose phenotype.

[WhiteDevil]

Those are sold as Chocolate BNP's around me, a few LFS have them.

[apistomaster]

Those are sold as Chocolate BNP's around me, a few LFS have them.

That may be true but those are a different morph than most would call L144.

[Dave Rinaldo]

Those are sold as Chocolate BNP's around me, a few LFS have them.

Maybe you are referring to what is commonly called 'albino chocolate pleco', which is not an Ancistrus sp..

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

[Suckermouth]

the eye color is different,

and yes, in leucism the eye color is normal, but in leucism there is no yellow pigment, so they should be much paler then. In my opinion the L144 is surely no leucistic fish.

another difference is that the albino cf. cirrhosus has spots all over the body (similar to the normal ones), the L144 is plain yellow.

If that's the case, how about xanthism/xanthochromism? Unfortunately I don't know if, in xanthism, dark pigments in the eye are retained...

[MatsP]

the eye color is different,

and yes, in leucism the eye color is normal, but in leucism there is no yellow pigment, so they should be much paler then. In my opinion the L144 is surely no leucistic fish.

another difference is that the albino cf. cirrhosus has spots all over the body (similar to the normal ones), the L144 is plain yellow.

If that's the case, how about xanthism/xanthochromism? Unfortunately I don't know if, in xanthism, dark pigments in the eye are retained...

I believe (but may be wrong - I've not bothered to look this up this very moment) that Leucistic and Xanthic form are one and the same, just different names (or they look the same, but are caused by different genetic forms).

--
Mats

[Bijn]

Xanthism is a mutation witch causes higher levels of yellow pigmentation, normally with reduction of the other pigments. So in most cases xanthic animals do have red eye's.

Leucism is the total lack of pigmentation on the hole body or in patches (this is what is called piedbald) except in the eye witch is normally coloured.


So xanthism and Leucism aren't the same and doesn't look the same.

[Amberdawn]

I don't think the yellow color of the L144 necessarily disqualifies leucism as the factor at work here. Granted leucism reduces all pigments including yellow, but as apistomaster brought out color can arise from dietary pigments also. Partial leucism is also a possibility as L144 do on occasion produce fry with small normally colored patches.

[Bijn]

I don't think the yellow color of the L144 necessarily disqualifies leucism as the factor at work here. Granted leucism reduces all pigments including yellow, but as apistomaster brought out color can arise from dietary pigments also. Partial leucism is also a possibility as L144 do on occasion produce fry with small normally colored patches.

I'm not convinced you're right, neither am I convinced you're wrong.


I do know that in some cases you can increase the level of pigments in the animal by feeding food witch has high pigment (or parts of it) levels. But to get the pigments from the food to the skin you need a hole chain of processes. When the chain is broken on a place (witch is the case in leucism) it doesn't matter how much pigments there are added in the food, they just don't get to the skin.


As far as I know leucism and partial leucism are caused by different genes, maybe there are codominant/intermediary leucistic mutants but even then is it impossible that 2 leucistics produce partial leucistics . What you describes (occasional fry with normal patches) sounds more like paradox albino's, with is a non-genetic trait. Paradox albino's are genetic equal to normal albino's, but they have normal patches. This is contradictory with the "chain-story", I know, but the term "paradox albino" isn't chosen without reason. But it can't be albino's because they have dark eyes.



Can't it just be a yellow species?

Were did the original L114 came from? Wild cought?

[apistomaster]

I thought good old wikipedia might have something to help me understand the difference between leucistic and albino, which it did. It's worth a look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucism

"Color foods" can influence the degree of red pigment)carotenoids) development in albinos because by definition, an albino lacks all melanocytes but albinism is not related to other pigmented cells.

The origins of L144 are as shrouded with mystery as the origins of the common aquarium strain bushy Nose Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus as near as I can determine and at this point, it may be the case than there are no purebred L144 in existence. So much indiscriminate hybridization between L144 and the aquarium strain bushy nose has occurred. Perhaps there are some pure bred L144 lines, I can't say. But I can say that if a yellow blue eyed Ancistrus species existed we certainly would be able to catch more of them. I doubt that is the case. More likely, a mutation appeared in an aquarium spawn and was fixed through selective breeding and became L144 to us. Since meristics tend to be a fairly color blind approach to distinguishing a species then it should not be that hard to compare them and tell whether the L144 is a different species than common bushy nose or just another mutation of same. All is speculation unless someone is willing to let a neutral party work with some pickled samples.

[Suckermouth]

There are domesticated breeds of certain species that have dark eyes and yellow/orange bodies (goldfish, canaries). Considering how most xanthic strains appear to have red eyes, however, I'll assume this is not as easy as to produce, and goldfish and yellow canaries are definitely domesticated, which means it might've taken a few generations to get it right. On the other hand, it's not impossible to have a yellow animal with dark/normal eyes. I am not convinced that L144 can be differentiated from A. cf. cirrhosus by what could be very few mutations. Although the fact that L144 has an uncommon form of xanthism sure throws a wrench in my argument.

Larry, problematically there are some species of loricariids described based primarily on color differences, such as species of Peckoltia and Hypancistrus. However, this probably isn't the case with Ancistrus; considering most of them are brown/black spotted fish, coloration might not be an extremely valuable way to distinguish species, so scientists have probably avoided describing Ancistrus unnecessarily, especially considering it's a fairly large genus and needs revision.

[apistomaster]

Hi Milton,

I do understand that color/patterns are useful and are usually included in any formal description of a species. Even the nondescript brown species.
My thoughts were regarding Ancistrus which are by and large nondescript brown fish although there are notable exceptions like L183. But this thread is about L144 and A. cf. cirrhosus which narrowed the field of consideration down to only two putative species.
As I wrote previously, if there is a naturally occurring golden blue eye Ancistrus species there would not be much trouble telling the difference between the two. A colorful natural form would surely be continued to be caught and imported for the hobby. I do not know of any natural Ancistrus species that is distinguished by it's golden color and blue eyes. A mutation arose among aquarium bred fish from one or both of the two possible species which has resulted in confusion. Just seems to me that it would not take that much work for anyone having sacrificial specimens of both to compare them and find out what if any differences there are between them without having to do a complete revision of the genus Ancistrus.

[Suckermouth]

Hi Milton,

I do understand that color/patterns are useful and are usually included in any formal description of a species. Even the nondescript brown species.
My thoughts were regarding Ancistrus which are by and large nondescript brown fish although there are notable exceptions like L183. But this thread is about L144 and A. cf. cirrhosus which narrowed the field of consideration down to only two putative species.
As I wrote previously, if there is a naturally occurring golden blue eye Ancistrus species there would not be much trouble telling the difference between the two. A colorful natural form would surely be continued to be caught and imported for the hobby. I do not know of any natural Ancistrus species that is distinguished by it's golden color and blue eyes. A mutation arose among aquarium bred fish from one or both of the two possible species which has resulted in confusion. Just seems to me that it would not take that much work for anyone having sacrificial specimens of both to compare them and find out what if any differences there are between them without having to do a complete revision of the genus Ancistrus.

Yeah, that's true, enough.

[sidguppy]

i'm not convinced we;'re dealing with a single species here at all.

first the cf cirrhosus.
the common brown bristlenose has been in the hobby for a long time. decades in fact.
in the 'old days" whenever a brown bristlenose was sold it was labelled Xenocara dolichoptera or Xenocara bufonia or similar labels. all were lumped together and viewed as a single species.
today it seems every single individual catfish is a different species when it comes from the next river; but once it was quite the opposite.
these beasties were mixed, lumped together and bred. and breed they did.
that is why i'm convinced that what we know as the common brown bristlenose is not a true species at all, but something akin to the red sworttail. a hybrid.
I don't call them Ancistrus domesticus as a joke......

the L144 was an import from Paraguay or a similar place.
it might have been a mutant, it likely is.
but what happened is the opposite; instead of lumping dozens of possibnle species together to inadvertly create the hobby's best algae eater; these on the other hand were linebred to an extreme.
so regardless of what it is; it IS a true species, not a hybrid.
a species decending from most likely a single mutation, but that still makes it a pure strain. more so, in fact.
except for a bunch of idiots that mix the l144 with the common brown or worse, the albino bristlenose.

then there are the differences in behaviour, keeping and outlooks.

L144 can be kept cold. very cold.....it does just fine at roomtemperature, even breeds, and it doesn't get torpid or stops feeding, not even when kept at 15'C or so.
an obvious clou pointing at the place of origin! really a true southerner.
it's also more fragile when the heat turns up, at least in my experience.
at temperatures when the common bristlenose still goes about, like 28-30'C or so, the l144 is in big trouble.

for Ancistrus cf cirrhosus this is different. they can stand cold, but they do get torpid, sluggish and visible unhappy. they do best at 22-25'C. and theyprefer breeding at higher temperatures than the L144

as of looks; a fully grown L144 does look decidedly different from a fully grown cf cirrhosus.
it's much broader for example, and has a LOT more bristles. very old L144 males almost have a triangle shape like we know of Ancistrus ranunculus. but the best way to see real differrnces is the bristles. L144 males can grow things that recall antlers instead of bristles, while cf cirrhosus even in old age is more moderate in growing these when compared to the other Anistrus species.

[Amberdawn]

Several months ago I specifically asked if the L144 was a color or species. If anybody is interested in what the experts here had to say, the thread was titled "L144, color or species.

[Dave Rinaldo]

Several months ago I specifically asked if the L144 was a color or species. If anybody is interested in what the experts here had to say, the thread was titled "L144, color or species.

Here

[PimHasAPond]

Dear sidguppy,

I am very happy with your destinctive information about the differences between the two. I couldn't tell that from the database information given on planetcatfish.
I hope that such information is actually added to that information by moderators or administrators to make the information better and more complete.

Is it by chance possible that you go over the different pictures there and tell whether they actually belong to the A. cf. Cirrhosus or the L144?
Because i have the idea that there might have been mistakes made in posting pictures there.

Thanks a lot for the input here.
btw.: i have, by pure interest, put Ancistrus cf. Cirrhosus in my 6 cubic meter pond. The night temperatures have dropped to about 8 degrees celcius several nights recently. I still see the catfish alive and feeding on my algae. Am not sure about their happiness, but they seem to be allright on what i can see (swimming to other places on a fairly decent pace if they want, when i take a look at them at night with lights pointed at them). I monitor the water values like KH, GH, PH, NO2, NO3 and so on regularly (at least weekly). I also have a fair amount of hiding spots. Currently have 6 of them in my pond and they still are grazing one of the sides of my pond.

Who knows the flexibility of these catfish. I personally find it quite hard to believe that a FAST running river has a temperature of 25 degrees or higher, even in tropical conditions, knowing that water at speed loses temperature quite fast when falling, changing course and so on. It gains temperature only when it slows down to low moving speeds. Anyways, thanks for the info!
Pim

[MatsP]

Water doesn't get cool in warm climates when it's moving around. Remember, there is no "cold season" in the tropics, the air temperature varies between mid 20's in the night to high 20's or mid 30's in the day. And the humidity is high, so there is no evaporation to cool down the water.

Rivers in South America commonly reach 25-30'C, no doubt. Of course, SOME smaller rivers run down from the high altitude in the Andes, where the local temperatures get down to freezing. But once the water gets down to the flatter sections, even if they are fast flowing in places, the water is generally warm, 25-30'C.

And your pond is highly likely keeping a temperature well above 10'C at the moment, becasue even if the night temperature goes low, the 8 cubic meters of water takes some time to cool down, and the ground around the pond also keeps a certain amount of heat.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

Pim

It always comes down to 'where is the equilibrium' and 'how fast will the system reach equilibrium' . Slowly flowing water, in the sun, heats up, fast flowing water just does not have that much time, but these water quite often also get less sun - in Europe, that is - due to their higher erosive activity they dig themselves a gorge.

In NL the year round average temperature is around 10 C, and therefore a very large body of water will be close to this 10 C, especially deepter than 10 meters or so. As Matts wrote, in the tropics these temeratures are much higer, and therefore equilibrium lies higher

Your large pond is, just as mine are (11 each 600 liters) still warm from the summer. But, they will be cooling down, as the air gets colder. In a month I expect your pont to have dropped to below 15 C at 14:00 hrs, the warmest period of the day.

By that time, your Ancistrus is not in trouble, but in another month I'm afraid thay are. If possible, net them out, the 4 C watertemperature in winter will be far too cold

[WhiteDevil]

Similar to a chocolate albino but its a BNP, its got the elongated head w/ the barbell nose.