Zebra Plecos Beyond F1

[TwoTankAmin]

In recent months we have all seen scores of wc zebras offered for sale at ever dropping prices. There have been forum threads on a number of sites Including here) discussing the future of not only zebras but other hypans also banned for export by Brazil.

Has anybody not read a post rumoring about secret captive breeding programs on the verge of unleashing 1,000s of zebras onto the market from places as far away as Asia or a close as Brazil iteself?

The hoopla never seems to end.

What I want to know is there anybody out there who now has F2 or F3 fry? If all the stories, or at least some of them were true, would we not see breeders offering F2 or F3 fish? I have taken rosy barbs, montezuma swordtails and bristlnose plecos to F3 my tanks, but I am still working to get just a single F2 zebra spawn.

If zebra plecos are so plentiful, so easy to raise and keep and so easy to spawn as some folks contend, where are all the F2 and F3 zebras and beyond?????

[Martin S]

I'm no expert on this subject, but from the little I know, the small number of eggs and slow growth rate of zebra young makes breeding them in large numbers for a "quick sale" nearon impossible.
The post you mention was done on here some time ago I'm sure, and i think the answers I give above may well be some of the answers given. A forum search should throw up the posts.
Martin

[MatsP]

This goes round every few months or so "Someone is breeding lots of Zebra plecos, the prices will drop dramatically" - not likely, in my opinion.

Let's say we want to produce 2000 Zebra plecos that are 2" long (so two years old):
Year 1.
We start with, say, 10 pairs of zebra plecos.
All of the pairs produce 15 young each, giving 150 fry.
We grow the 150 fry on, loosing 10% per year.
Year 2:
We have 135 F1 that are a year old.
We get 150 F1 that are new born.
Year 3:
We have 122 F1 that are two years old
We have 135 F1 that are one year old
We have 150 F1 that are new born.
Year 4:
The 110 F1 that are three years old breed: 55 pairs -> 825 F2 fry.
We also have 122 F1 that are two years old.
We also have 135 F1 that are one year old.
And another 150 F1 from the original 10 pairs.
Year 5:
The 110 pairs of F1 give another 1650 F2 fry.
We also have 122 F1 that are two years old.
We also have 135 F1 that are one year old.
And another 150 F1 from the original 10 pairs.
Year 6:
The 165 pairs of F1 give another 2475 F2 fry.
We also have 122 F1 that are two years old.
We also have 135 F1 that are one year old.
And another 150 F1 from the original 10 pairs.

So, it takes more than 5 years of intensive breeding to make 10 pairs of H. zebra produce 2000 fish.

Considering that Maidenhead Aquatics in the UK has nearly 100 shops, if ALL of these 2000 fish go to the UK, there would be 20 for each shop.
Now, of course, if we hold back 20% of the fry from year 5, and use them for breeding F3 fry, one could perceivably produce more fish.

I personally do not think such a huge breeding project is particularly viable - it is very likely that the losses are much larger, the time it takes to get return on money (6 years!) is quite long, and there are probably many much more productive fish that could be housed in the several dozen 100 liter tanks needed to keep these fish.

I would estimate that there are at least 20 breeding pairs in the UK alone - probably a lot more - they are producing some 300 fry every year.

--
Mats

[Jools]

Great post, and it doesn't take into account tank wide wipe outs etc.

Jools

[MatsP]

Great post, and it doesn't take into account tank wide wipe outs etc.

Jools

Indeed, there are lots of potential for things going wrong in a large breeding setup with dozens of tanks. And I think on a large scale, a 10% mortality rate per year is probably low.

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

My question was somewhat rhetorical. However, I would suggest that my experience has been a tad different than the numbers above.

I started with a 13 fish breeding colony. Best guess was 4-5 males and rest fms. Over the 1st two plus years of spawning I had 3 different males spawn with various females. The 3rd male only spawned once to the best of my knowledge. I never tried to count how many eggs were laid nor how many viable fry resulted. However I did track the number of spawns. Here is a quick summary of what I experienced:

1. The fish spawned repeatedly once they started and they continued for about 8 months.
2. They would then stop for about 5 months.
3. There seemed to between 4-5 weeks between spawns from any one male.
4. My best guess is the average clutch of eggs was 10-15.
5. My best guess is the average fish hatched and raised to be evicted from the cave for a spawn was 8 -12.
6. My survival rate for the breeders was 9/13 after 3.5 years.
7. My survival rate for fry kept by me or else sold, traded or given away was about 60-65% (I did accideentally kill some myself).

So my best guess is that in a year a mature pair would produce more like 6-7 spawns and have 10-15 fry or from 60 to as many as 100 fry total. Depending on the skills and effort of the keepers involved, I would hope their survival rate would be superior to mine, so that at 75%, a pair should end up producing 45 to 75 fry/year. That would suggest 10 pairs should produce more like 450-750 fry/year.

However, I was really asking why is it that one never seems to hear of or to be shown F2 or F3 zebra plecos. Surely there have been folks breeding these fish for 4-5 years by now which should have resulted in some F2s?? My excuse is I never kept any for myself until the end of last year. Hoping to have F2s sometime next year.

[Jon]

I have spawned F1s. I know of others who have F2s. Keep in mind that it has been only recently, say, within the last ten or so years that the basics of loricariidae spawning have been elucidated. I would still maintain that hypans are easy to spawn.

[apistomaster]

Hypancistrus spp are not difficult to breed but there are some of the smaller species, take H.zebra and L260 as examples as they are extremely similar in every respect except notoriety.
Neither is particular fecund.
I agree with Jon that the information about how to go about breeding them only fairly recently become common knowledge.
The wild supplies did gradually dry up. Perhaps not as complete and suddenly as the more recent complete export ban of all Brazilian Hypancistrus spp.
Most of the specimens were held as individual specimens rather than in breeding size groups so the actual pool of breeders and potential breeders was/is relatively small compared to the demand. Successful breeders also sold many single specimens from their spawns. Some elements of status apply to both the seller and buyer of single specimens to trophy collectors who contributed nothing to any breeding program.
These fish have a pretty long time between generations. Many specimens do not become very productive breeders until they reach 3 to 3-1/2 years. And the survival rate of most broods is between 8-12 out of 10 to 16 eggs produced. I only personally know a few hobbyist scale breeders of H. zebra. Their colonies are very small to my way of thinking as compared to a commercial scale breeding operation. I may be wrong but I would hazard a guess that few breeders ever retained 20% of all viable fry that survive. Maintaining fewer than 30 producing breeders means that not very many fish are being produced.
It would take a much larger breeding colonies to raise the general number of bred fish to much higher numbers. Retaining 20% of each generations' production, as Mat mentioned would help increase the numbers of captive bred fish. Unless the plan is to retain 20% of all fish produced by any colony in any given year production would remain low. A breeder would need a large number of rearing tanks for retaining such large numbers of future breeders that might each take about 3-1/2 years before making their own contribution to the totals bred. If each generation had a breeding life of 8 years on average, one could easily have to maintain a pipeline of a few to several hundred fish coming on line just as the oldest breeders reach the end of their breeding life. It is not inconceivable to me that a commercial breeding operation may need to have 500 to a 1000 fish on hand at any given point in time not destined for sale if producing several hundreds of fish of fish per year was the goal and to minimize the possibility of a major set back should there be any incident(s) caused the loss of any given year(s) retained future breeders. One has to consider these possibilities in one's long term planning. Contingency plans for disasters must be in place. I think it could easily take 12 years to establish a significantly large commercial breeding operation. I would base these assumptions on that the original founding colony consisting of at least 30 fish. I think it would of necessity be no small undertaking. My estimate is it would take about 12 years to establish a solid based commercial breeding program.
If the founding stock numbered 100 then I think it could cut the time down to 6 years to become a commercial scale breeding operation.
12 years and the hatchery's minimum size would be a significant commitment of time and resources.

[ElTofi]

my experience with Zebra's is quite similar as yours, Twotankamin.

I've kept Zebra's during 3.5 years having 5 females for 4 males from 4 different DNA origin. They were in 2 different tanks making 2 alpha males spawning with several females. In average I had a spawning every 5-6 weeks during 5-6 months each year. I never counted the total spawnings, but I know I raised around 300 fry till 4 to 6 months during these 3.5 years. Every single fry was sold (or given) to friends in Switzerland or around (a few of them went to France and Italy).

Personnaly, I hadn't enough tanks to try to keep F2 for breeding... but I know some of "my" babies produced F3 after a while and I heard lately some of the F3 produced F4... Anyway, as already said, the poor growing speed, the poor number of eggs (the biggest spawning ever seen by me was 18 eggs, with 14 fry in the end) and the time you need to spend for care of it, makes this all stuff a nice challenge... but in no way it's possible to make a businness out of it..

in my opinion, at least.

[TwoTankAmin]

I am happy to read that there are some F2 and beyonds out there. The thing is there don't seem to be too many of them, yet. I sure hope this changes over the next few years.

[Jon]

It's surely just a time thing.

[upc239]

fascinating thread members...i was glued to the screen With all the talk about Zebra's who's talking l260's????

[apistomaster]

I have 3 pairs of L260.
They finally spawned around Christmas 2008 and again in February.
I have 20 F1 L260 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inches.

They are very difficult to find now.
(And, No, I do not have any for sale for those reading this in the USA)
Perhaps once I have accumulated 20 more, then I may sell some.
I want to be sure I establish a large colony of future breeders.

[Mongo]

Well some of the fish I have bred have now had second generation, ask Mark walters from the CSG or Windy 1958 from pleco fanatics.

I have read how slow growing these fish are, as far as I am concerned this is not the case, 2" after a year should be the norm. I read everyting that was written, thought I was doing well, then I saw some fish that I'd given away that were doing far better than mine, they had 24/7 attention.I have tried to copy this and got similar results.

The beauty of Hypancistrus is that they don't stunt, so can only assume that they are slow growers in the wild, and the more nutritious diet brings them on a bit quicker.

In saying this I have been experimenting with Green Swordtails recently, bought a trio that were no more than 3 inches long, they have grown no more, the offspring are now at least 50% bigger and the males haven't developed swords yet.

Also bought some L46 at less than 1 ", they do catch up. Though slowly.

Guess with the swordtails, the stuntedness found doesn't affect the genetics.

I no longer think of myself as a fish keeper but a water manager.

All the best

Dave

Or for you Jon the douche bag, but what do you call a toilet in the US?

[apistomaster]

"I no longer think of myself as a fish keeper but a water manager.

All the best

Dave"

I have a similar view of my role as a hobbyist/fish breeder.
If I manage the water quality then the breeding takes place as a matter of course.

[apistomaster]

I have written that small Hypancistrus spp like H. zebra and L260 grow at an average rate of an inch per year.
Averaging can distort the facts. These 2 species actually do grow to about 2 inches in year one, if well cared for but their subsequent growth rates slows as they reach maturity which seems to take about 3 to 3-1/2 years to complete. Hence the average growth is 1 inch per year but doesn't accurately reflect reality. They have periods of fast and slow growth and similar lessor or more rapid growth during the subsequent next couple years. Their growth rate are not simply linear.

[bristlenosekid]

there was a german breeder l046 had a large stock amount stolen worth £150,000 from the reports i can gather it was about 400 fish adluts and young mixture. the poor man was devisted as they found about 20+ deid on the floor.

[Jools]

there was a german breeder l046 had a large stock amount stolen worth £150,000 from the reports i can gather it was about 400 fish adluts and young mixture. the poor man was devisted as they found about 20+ deid on the floor.

Yup, this was reported on this forum soon after it happened. It appears that the numbers and sums invovled have increased a bit since the original report. I might add the £150,000 / 420 = ~£350 per fish - very expensive for zebras. As Marc says Hype-ancistrus...

Jools

[apistomaster]

Good one, Jools,
I knew the new figure was greatly inflated.
Not to minimize the previously reported incident any.