L015 sexing

[aldare]

Hi all,

I have 3 of these fish and they are reaching their maximal theoretical length. One of them is about 11cm and it is clearly a female when watched from above. The problem are the two remaining, which are both about 10cm long and none of them is showing either any odontonal growth or rounded belly.
My question is whether at this size the males should be showing their odontodes, especially on the back half of the fish body. I know their sexing should be very easily identified by odontodes and I am really confused that there is still nothing, even at this age.
Is it possible the odontodes are still going to grow or is it more likely I have 3 females?

thanks for any reply
aldare

[MatsP]

How long have you had them?

When I had two of these (both males!), the dominant male was definitely showing odontal growth. It was probably a bit more than 10cm total length tho'.

--
Mats

[Borbi]

Hi,

might also be that they only develop their heavy odontodal growth during spawning season.
My P. sp. "L 140" males only have their odontodal growth during (our) winter and lose it for summer. Still visible, however, are the longer cheek odontodes in males (and body shape, of course).

Cheers, Sandor

[aldare]

How long have you had them?

When I had two of these (both males!), the dominant male was definitely showing odontal growth. It was probably a bit more than 10cm total length tho'.

--
Mats

They were imported and were about 7-8cm when I got them about 7 months ago.

So was it showing the odontal growth when it was >10cm or was it visible even earlier with shorter legth of the odontodes?

[aldare]

Hi,

might also be that they only develop their heavy odontodal growth during spawning season.
My P. sp. "L 140" males only have their odontodal growth during (our) winter and lose it for summer. Still visible, however, are the longer cheek odontodes in males (and body shape, of course).

Cheers, Sandor

I have one clear female and there is no other difference between her and the two remaining fish in odontodal growth.

[apistomaster]

I think they are still too young to breed and that they need more time for the secondary sexual characteristics to become more obvious.
They may need another year or so to reach maturity. Most Peckoltia and Hypancistrus seem to need to be abot 3 to 3-1/2 years old before they are fully mature. My Peckoltia L134, for example, reach 7 cm in 1 year but do not begin spawning for another 2 years.

[aldare]

Hi guys,

I've seen some 7cm L015 in local shop few days ago and they were showing odontonal growth already. Because my is almost 10cm long, I decided to make some pictures and ask you for your opinion, whether you can say what is their sex and how sure you are about this.

Thanks a lot

[MatsP]

I'm not sure that your fish is actually

Peckoltia vittata

- there are a number of Peckoltia that look roughly the same from different areas. My main reason for saying that is that the markings do not appear to be distinct enough.

Unfortunately, without good data as to where the fish is from, it can be hard to say which species (or L-number) it is. And of course, if we don't know what they are, we can't quite say if they are mature or not, as they grow to different sizes.

The fact that we can't say what species the fish is, also causes concern for "getting more" - we do not want to mix your fish with other ones of a different species, just in case they DO breed.

But if someone held a gun to my head and asked me to say whether your fish are male or female, then I'd go for female on both of them. Although they look a little bit too skinny to be mature, egg-laden females, they do look slightly wider midway between the pectoral and ventral fins.

--
Mats

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Aldare,
I agree with Mats, in regard to his statement about whether or not these fish are actually

Peckoltia vittata

. However if you look at my previous post http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=26419 then I do think that your fish are the same as mine.
Since my post I have also found a picture of a mature Peckoltia vittata in the Datz Special All L-Numbers: Habitat, Care & Diet book, and the mature fish (which was 9-10 cm, but not necessarily fully grown) has a more broken line which is similar to "our" pictures.
I also would agree that both of the fish you have posted are females. I say this because I think that I have 3 males, and they are all showing odontonal growth.
Mine all live in caves, while the other three (of the same fish) in the tank have never shown any interest in a cave.
My fish are about 8cm TL.
Perhaps behaviour, caves vs. no caves, may give you a better idea?

Cheers

Geoff

[MatsP]

The "cave or no cave", I don't believe is a SECURE method for determining sex on it's own, but certainly could be used as "one of many" keys. Presence of odontal growth is definitely a good key on it's own, but it only really works for males. Absence of odontal growth is not a good sign of a female, as subdominant males MAY also not have much, if any odontodes.

Your post shows well the variety in stripey Peckoltia, and the difficulty in identifying them.

--
Mats

[aldare]

First thanks for your answers.

When I bought them, they were all striped without any breaks (see picture in this post). I've got 3 of them and the biggest one (I'm qute sure it is a female) had started to change the stripes to more complex lines about 4 months ago. Now it has some dots on the top and looks quite differently than before some time (see the picture in this post). Sedond fish started to change the stripes about 2 months ago and as you can see in the picture "2nd fish top view" (previous post), the "dots" are now becoming visible as well. The third one started to change the colouration few weeks ago, it is not visible yet too much - picture "1st fist top view" (previous post).

The most dominant one is the biggest female. It almost never caves. Second in dominancy is the one in picture "2nd fish front top side view" (previous post). It only caves. Third one is "1st top view" (previous post), it almost never caves.

My guess is :
Biggest one (>10cm) - female 90% (rounded belly, doesnt cave) - picture this post
Middle one (>9cm) - female 70% (rounded belly, but it caves) - 2 pictures previous post
Smallest one (9cm) - female 60% (doesnt cave, but I dont see the rounded belly yet) - 1 picture previous post

Could you please try to say the probability (with the gun near the head, of course in the same way, please? Thank you!

[MatsP]

I'd give my score about 70% sure on all of them. Of course, you are in a much better position, as you can see the fish "live", and have probably spent hours (like I normally do) watching them before you even posted here.

I'm not sure what you are going to do with those figures. Either someone is pretty darn sure (90% or higher), or not very sure (less than 90%). If "not sure", then it's pretty much "a guidance, but you have to make your own decission". At some point, that's what it comes down to.

--
Mats

[aldare]

I'd give my score about 70% sure on all of them. Of course, you are in a much better position, as you can see the fish "live", and have probably spent hours (like I normally do) watching them before you even posted here.

I'm not sure what you are going to do with those figures. Either someone is pretty darn sure (90% or higher), or not very sure (less than 90%). If "not sure", then it's pretty much "a guidance, but you have to make your own decission". At some point, that's what it comes down to.

--
Mats

Yes, you are right, I spent a lot of time by observing them. But I am not very experienced yet, I have these fish for only one year. I read what I could (here and elsewhere), but experience is the best.

I made a mistake and bought only 3 of them. Which is not a good number if I am planning to breed them. All my other L-fish (107, 201, 270, 340) is 5 specimen for each. I know someone who has 1 female and 2 males and we can change my female for one of his males. Then we both would have the optimal ratio 2-1. And of course, before we do, I want to be sure it is worth it (travelling 500km, quarantine...)

[MatsP]

I know the feeling. I still don't know if Neil at Pier correctly sexed my L128 [do not take this as "do not trust Neil", but rather that I have yet to convince myself which one of my fish is the male] - they do not show much sexual dimorphism to me, so I can't say myself. They are doing well, however, and I hope they will breed for me sooner rather than later. But I think they are still young.

--
Mats

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Aldare,
I too share your frustration.
I have not been doing this long myself, but the thought that I should have got more of one kind of fish can be very annoying, whilst waiting for them to mature enough to tell the sex's apart.

Here are two things that I know for sure:
1: It will almost drive you mad trying to tell the sex's apart if all the fish are of the same sex!
2: If the fish are too young to display sexual differences, then they are not worried about trying to breed, so you shouldn't be too worried about trying to breed them (Yet).

I bought a fish that I thought was a girl once, fully mature, and not one sign of being a boy. A few days after dropping her in with my boys, she was the most dominant male that I had . There were no others of his kind in the tank he grew up in, so there had been no need for him to "display".

Cave vs. no cave behaviour of course won't give you a definitive answer, just an indicator.
Males should also have prolonged odontodes behind the gill cover. In your smaller fish I would assume that these would be longer than the ones on the female in your last post, if any of them are male. The reason for this assumption is that because the males have longer odontodes behind the gill cover, they grow for a longer period of time, rather than grow quicker than a females. Therefore the male will start growing these earlier in their life than the female will. So if you have a large female, and a smaller "unknown" then it may be feasable to assume that if the smaller fish has longer odontodes behing the gill cover then it may be a male. (Just my hypothesis at this stage as I have not ever seen anything on the growth rates of odontodes behing the gill cover.)


So I'll still vote on 3 females (gun to head and all that)

Of course if you wait 4 months you may have a better idea, and the end of summer may be a nicer time to drive 500km.........



Geoff

[aldare]

Thanks for reply,

Hi Aldare,
I bought a fish that I thought was a girl once, fully mature, and not one sign of being a boy. A few days after dropping her in with my boys, she was the most dominant male that I had . There were no others of his kind in the tank he grew up in, so there had been no need for him to "display".
Geoff

Are you talking about dominancy or odontodes? If odontodes, how long it took to be visible? I know it depends on the age and the season. Maybe the existence of fish of the same sex is next trigger.

Cave vs. no cave behaviour of course won't give you a definitive answer, just an indicator.
Geoff

If one fish is still in the cave and the other almost never, I think there should be some reason. The problem is that if I compare the shape of the body, it is in contrast and I would say the caving one has to be a female.

Males should also have prolonged odontodes behind the gill cover. In your smaller fish I would assume that these would be longer than the ones on the female in your last post, if any of them are male. The reason for this assumption is that because the males have longer odontodes behind the gill cover, they grow for a longer period of time, rather than grow quicker than a females. Therefore the male will start growing these earlier in their life than the female will. So if you have a large female, and a smaller "unknown" then it may be feasable to assume that if the smaller fish has longer odontodes behing the gill cover then it may be a male. (Just my hypothesis at this stage as I have not ever seen anything on the growth rates of odontodes behing the gill cover.)
Geoff

Because these gill odontodes were visible from the beginning, I focused there for quite long time and there is no difference, all are of the same length

Geoff, you wrote you have 6 of them and mature. Are they breeding?
And what you think, are they vittatas? Do they look like the biggest one in the picture that I've posted or do they look differently?

[MatsP]

Geoff previously posted a link to his thread discussing the id of his fish, which has photos of his fish:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=26419
but also commented

then I do think that your fish are the same as mine.

--
Mats

[aldare]

Geoff previously posted a link to his thread discussing the id of his fish, which has photos of his fish:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 13&t=26419
but also commented

then I do think that your fish are the same as mine.

--
Mats

Yes, I know. But later I posted the image of my biggest fish :

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/down ... &mode=view

which is similar but not the same as fish in his images. I can see fish pictured in his images are similar to my "younger" ones, I just wanted to ask about the biggest one...

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Aldare,
The time zone differences are "delaying" my response, sorry, and so is my kitten which keeps running over the keyboard "helping" me invent new words

Yes, I know. But later I posted the image of my biggest fish :
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/down ... &mode=view
which is similar but not the same as fish in his images. I can see fish pictured in his images are similar to my "younger" ones, I just wanted to ask about the biggest one...

Geoff, you wrote you have 6 of them and mature. Are they breeding?
And what you think, are they vittatas? Do they look like the biggest one in the picture that I've posted or do they look differently?

OK, Yann has just updated my other post with some more information, re

Peckoltia sp(l288)

having "orange" fins. Your fish number 2 and the largest one seem to have an orange colouration on the fins, so they may be L288? Your biggest one does look different to mine, mine has much less dark brown, and mine have no hint of Orange in the fins.

I didn't actually say that mine were mature, just that I was comfortable to sex them. The reasons behind my choice of sexing them, is that some have a broader / thicker leading edge on the pectoral fin, and there are bristles growing on them. From above, the scutes on the posterior of the body are more pronounced on the ones that have the thicker edge to the pectoral fin, and those ones live in caves also.
I would estimate that breeding will be 18-24 months away.

The physical differences in the sex's of Peckoltia should be generic enough to determine the sex of most of the different Peckoltia sp.

Are you talking about dominancy or odontodes? If odontodes, how long it took to be visible? I know it depends on the age and the season. Maybe the existence of fish of the same sex is next trigger.

That particular fish was an L204 and it was the odontodes on the posterior of the body that seemed to appear from nowhere in a week or so.

If one fish is still in the cave and the other almost never, I think there should be some reason. The problem is that if I compare the shape of the body, it is in contrast and I would say the caving one has to be a female.

I agree there must be a reason to stay in a cave. Mine are all too similar in shape for body shape to give me a good indication at this time, but they are also still immature.

I hope this helps rather than confuses you.

Cheers

Geoff

[aldare]

OK, Yann has just updated my other post with some more information, re

Peckoltia sp(l288)

having "orange" fins. Your fish number 2 and the largest one seem to have an orange colouration on the fins, so they may be L288? Your biggest one does look different to mine, mine has much less dark brown, and mine have no hint of Orange in the fins.

It is of the same color as the lighter stripes of the body. No special orange on the fins. I wouldn't call any color of their bodies as orange. It might contain it, but not mainly. The colouration cannot be compared properly, because some pictures has been made under the flash of the camera, some under pure white fluorescent light and some under yellow fluorescent light. The colouration is then absolutelly different even for the same fish. The dark brown under yellow light in the shade will look very different under direct white fluorescent light.
What is comparable is the pattern they have. I guess it is the same, right?

That particular fish was an L204 and it was the odontodes on the posterior of the body that seemed to appear from nowhere in a week or so.

Very interesting!
I've made some more pics of the fish (last, too stressing for them) and the only difference seems to be the shape of the head when watched from the side.
You can compare it attached...
Question is whether this can be used for sexing...

Many thanks for opinions...

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Aldare,
I have seen references to the head shape being used to identify the sex, with the male having a longer head, i.e. your fish #2. (and this is the one that lives in a cave.......)
I am not sure if this applies to Peckoltia sp. though.

Give it another 6 months and you should know for sure.

Cheers
Geoff

[aldare]

For anyone who could be interested ... these guys were all females. I've exchanged one of them for male and the difference is very obvious.

[MatsP]

For anyone who could be interested ... these guys were all females. I've exchanged one of them for male and the difference is very obvious.

Like I've said several times: It's often easy to tell the sexes apart when you have both. It can be very hard to tell what they are when you only have one sex.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I don't know which Peckoltia spp you have but they are not the one I consider to be Peckoltia vittata. Here is a photo of the species I consider to be P. vittata.

[aldare]

I don't know which Peckoltia spp you have but they are not the one I consider to be Peckoltia vittata. Here is a photo of the species I consider to be P. vittata.

Thanks for reply

Ok then, they've looked right like that to the size about 8SL. Then the stripes started to scatter a bit. The problem is a fact that most the pictures available online are most likely pictures of younger ones.

Is the fish you posted yours? Full sized? If anyone had these at 10SL without broken stipes, I would like to hear that to be sure it is not Vittata.

I've exchanged one female for male with someone who had the male from another importer than I do. Even his male started to break the stripes at the size of about 8-9SL

[apistomaster]

The fish in my photo is an adult fish.
P. vittata retain their even banded pattern all their life.
They are some what more slender in build than your species.

[aldare]

Well, then it is very difficult to say what it really is, right? I don't know their exact origin unfortunatelly.
They might be http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=827, but this is just guessing

[apistomaster]

I may not know which species of Peckoltia you have but as long as you have 4-6 of them your chances of having at least one female is good and therefore you should give breeding them a try. Have you read Janne's article?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... 3C%2Fem%3E
Here again you can see the typical appearance of P. vittata but they all breed in the same way so his article is good place to begin.

[aldare]

I may not know which species of Peckoltia you have but as long as you have 4-6 of them your chances of having at least one female is good and therefore you should give breeding them a try. Have you read Janne's article?
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... 3C%2Fem%3E
Here again you can see the typical appearance of P. vittata but they all breed in the same way so his article is good place to begin.

Yes, I've read that some time ago. I have two females and one male and will definitely try to breed them. The male is a bit shy, but time will do its job, I'm qite sure.