The challenge part 2

[L number Banana]

mummymonkey,
Nice fish How big are they? Look healthy too!

[MatsP]

Looks nice indeed. Can't see any red/orange on the pectorals, but I guess giving it some time will be the only possible thing.

--
Mats

[Jools]

I just moved my group to a 24x12 tank with (mostly beech) leaf litter. Rather annoyingly I managed to miss one, but they are all moved now and I'd say about 45mm SL.

Jools

[Taratron]

Working on getting my hoplos (littorale)to spawning gear. The anchor worms set me back a month or so, but did not lose any hoplos or any cats save my large royal pleco. Has anyone else noticed that hoplos devour duckweed like mad? I can't keep the tank covered with anything save naja grass, and that gets covered quickly with mulm and the like from the driftwood. I am guessing I need a lot of floating plants to give the hoplos just the idea of a bubble nest!

I know cories are technically not challenging, but I managed to find some hastatus cories, and since they seem hard to find sometimes, was wondering about a tank just for them: should I be looking at RO mixed with my tap (8.0) or do those pH powders work at all?

[Cory_lover]

Hey guys! So I finally got my new 4ft tank to cycle, transfered all my existing cories into that tank, and now I'm left with a pair of M. thoracata (both approx 7.5cm in length) in a 3ft tank, and so I'm now trying to get them into spawning mode. However the male is keeping me confused though!:P It builds a small nest under one of those take-away-foodbox lids, and my friend at LFS said yeah give them some more time the nest will get bigger. In the meantime, I feed them half a cube of frozen brineshrimp in the morning, and one cube of frozen bloodworms at night. They devour both with ease so there's no worry of overfeeding. However, after a couple of days, the male just seems to get "bored" of building a nest and gives up!! argghhH!!! so frustrating! this has happened like 3 times already. Maybe I need to add actual floating plants, and not just a plastic lid?

Also, the water parameters (besides amm/nitrite/nitrate being 0) are:
pH - 6.8
kH - 4
GH - 1
Temp - 27degC

Is my water too soft? What's the best parameter to keep them at during the "fattening up" phase, and when I do that cool water change, should I maybe increase GH, and decrease PH in the new water or something?

[mummymonkey]

Looks nice indeed. Can't see any red/orange on the pectorals, but I guess giving it some time will be the only possible thing.

--
Mats

Do pectorale get this?

[L number Banana]

Cory-lover wrote:

the male just seems to get "bored" of building a nest and gives up!! argghhH!!! so frustrating! this has happened like 3 times already. Maybe I need to add actual floating plants, and not just a plastic lid?

Maybe you could add beech leaves or something like that that he could attach to the bubble nest? That youtube video shows a hoplo bringing the leaves from the bottom up to the nest.
Also, we have way different water temps but both have M. thoracata. I'm trying 22c?? Do they like warmer for spawning? My male is bigger than yours and has the red tips but no signs of any bubble nest building yet. I have fine leaved plants that are easily pulled apart (recommended by the breeder) and some floating plants. The species page mentions wisteria. I haven't put a lid in yet but it's worth a try. I'm feeding shrimp and pleco tabs. Eat like pigs don't they?!

Possibly a dumb question, but are you sure your female is a female? Maybe she's just not ready yet so the male stops building when his handiwork isn't noticed?

Hmm, I need more research into temps

Taratron wrote:

did not lose any hoplos or any cats save my large royal pl*co.

Sorry to hear that, it's a heartbreaker

[ozarowana]

Hey guys,

I have just started trying to spawn these guys too. I have 5 mature M. thoracata (2M 3F) about 12-14cm and 4 D. urostriatum about 10-11cm.

My thoracata have built nests under a piece of polystyrene, but no spawning occurred. This was stimulated by a cold rainwater change of about 50%. The five are in a 2x18x18 tank kept at about 26C, but I am going to split them into pairs soon or put them in a bigger tank.

An excellent paper if you have journal access. If not shoot me a PM.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j6q8461n117kn278/

A M. thoracata spawning.
http://www.perthcichlid.com.au/forum/in ... topic=2390

[Cory_lover]

OMG it is now 12:30am on 24 June 2009 and my eyes are like 0_0 from standing infront of my fish tank with my neck bent sideways so that I can peek upside down into the bubble nest that my male has built because the pair have spawned! like finally!!! woo hoo!!! l0l I just spent 2hours taking photos and a short video but I doubt that's any good...I'll try and post up some pics soon (once i figure out how to)..

This morning I went to LFS to buy some of those floating plants, I dunno wat they're called, but they're mid-sized floating plants, kinda resembling water hyacinths but lacking the plump leaves..they just expand over the water surface (and they're definitely not those tiny annoying duckweeds). But whatever they are, I think they did the trick coz now the male has used my plastic lid, those floating plants I bought, and a tall plant with broad leaves that reaches the water surface. Actually, I think the broad leaves of the tall plant constitutes about 70% of the nest.

I'm just gonna leave the lovers for now while I head off to bed and in the morning, I'll try and see if I can actually SEE eggs inside the nest. I dunno if it's the water reflection or the camouflage of the eggs or something but I can't seem to distinguish between bubbles and eggs. But I'm POSITIVE there are eggs somewhere in there because a) I saw the female with her clasped pelvic fins push eggs into the nest, b) I saw her and the male in the T position, and c) she looks really skinny now having expelled her roe. So I'm pretty sure spawning DID occur

Anywho, does anyone here know what colour the eggs are supposed to be? I saw a few photos of eggs that are orange, but do they turn orange a few days after? Oh btw my hoplo species is M. thoracatum.

[MatsP]

Fantastic, we have our first challenger success!

--
Mats

[L number Banana]

Yippee! Keep taking those notes and pictures!! Must have been difficult sleeping

[Jools]

Well done! I guess this thread can be embellished with pictures and so forth as successes happen. Do you think however that the challenge is met when the fry are raised or spawning or what?

Congrats on your accomplishment.

Jools

[grokefish]

The challenge is met when the fry are raised to sellable/swappable size as per the initial outline.
Gold star for Cory_Lover!

My attempt has gone to the dogs I'm afraid. Only one hoplo left and not a sign of any in the LFS.

Matt

[Cory_lover]

aww thanks guys! But considering this is my first successful hoplo spawning, I really do owe it to the information i gathered on this website and forum and leeching off other people's experiences! hahahaahah

Ok, so I took the risk and overturned the big broad leaf, because I couldn't be sure after spending like 15mins looking upsidedown at the nest, whether there were eggs or not. But low and behold, there were! They had that pale yellow/cream tinge to them, and I can see the dot in the middle of each egg. Each egg was approximately 1.5cm, and I can't be sure, but I estimate about 100 eggs.

I was paranoid that the male might eat the eggs (the way cory parents may do) so I scrapped them all off and transfered them to a separate container, with an airstone to provide a strong current, set the thermometer to 27degC, and added 2 drops of anti-fungus medication. I think the only thing left to do now is

a) wait a few days till hatching, and
b) upload pics!

woo hooo!! l0l...But more importantly, did I miss out anything in my post-spawning care? Also, what's the best food to give the newly-hatched fry? Should I wait 1-2day after they hatch to let them absorb their yolk first?

[Cory_lover]

Pair in T-Position below bubble nest

Female laying her eggs into the nest

Ok guys, here are some pics that I'm trying to upload onto the forum for the 1st time, so forgive me if anything weird happens

[Cory_lover]

Sorry guys, maximum of 3 uploads so gonna hafta do "Pics - Round 2" hhahaha Enjoy.

[L number Banana]

Oh Man! Those are awesome but I need a bigger tank! They look like they're swimming in Hoplo luxury.
Don't know for sure about fry care for these guys but I'll be watching here and doing some info-leeching of my own.

[Carp37]

Congrats and good luck raising them Cory_lover

Great photos too

[ozarowana]

Congrats mate...

Mine spawned today too Camera battery is dead but will post pics if they hatch.

[Cory_lover]

Just a little update:

I think I've lost like 80% of the eggs from the first spawning They were fertilised, but for some reason, they just kept "disintegrating" or fungusing, and that affected the surrounding eggs too. So now I'm trying to fatten up the pair and wait till the next spawning, except maybe this time I'll either:

a) leave the eggs for the male to look after, and only remove them after hatching, or
b) keep them in a floating container that has drilled holes on the side so that constant, fresh water from the parent's tank is continually passing through it.

Currently, they're in a little icecream container floating in the parents' tank, and I've clipped it to the side of the tank, temperature is at 24degC, but it doesn't have drilled holes, so I have to carefully siphon out fungus eggs/50% water every 3hrs and replace it with water from the parents tank to keep the conditions in the container 'fresh'. Also, I removed the eggs in fear the male will eat the eggs (like in cory fashion), but I'll leave them for the male to guard, and see how that works out....

It's only day 3 after spawning so the eggs (if they're healthy) haven't hatched yet anyway, my fingers are crossed, but considering the death rate atm, even if they hatch, I'm doubtful of their survival rate.

[Cory_lover]

"Also, I removed the eggs in fear the male will eat the eggs (like in cory fashion), but I'll leave them for the male to guard, and see how that works out"

Sorry - was meant to say that originally I removed the eggs fearing the male will eat the eggs, but for the next spawning, I'll let the male guard them, and remove fry after they've hatched.

BTW, I've heard that immediately after hatching, the fry attaches itself onto the surface of the leaf/lid on which the eggs were sticking to, but how am I to remove the newly-hatched fry without damaging them? Do I transfer the whole lid/plant into the separate container, or are they scrapped off...? am i making sense...? lol!

[Carp37]

BTW, I've heard that immediately after hatching, the fry attaches itself onto the surface of the leaf/lid on which the eggs were sticking to, but how am I to remove the newly-hatched fry without damaging them? Do I transfer the whole lid/plant into the separate container, or are they scrapped off...? am i making sense...? lol!

I could be wrong here (maybe she'll post to clarify) but I think that hoplo moves the whole nest, lid and all, into a large bucket with an air stone

[Cory_lover]

It's now been a week since my first spawning of M. thoracata. From that first spawn, no fry hatched. Refusing to be discouraged I re-conditioned my breeding pair and within a week they were back into spawning mode. So now the female has laid eggs, but this time under the take-away-box lid instead of the the big floating plant leaf, and I can clearly see the eggs from the water surface through the translucent lid.

However, this time round, I removed the female and left the male to tend the nest, and see if this method has a higher success rate of fry-hatching. Previously, I scraped off the eggs from the leaf and transfered them into a separate container. I intend to remove the fry after they hatch, but does anyone know when exactly I should do this? I heard they attach themselves onto the lid, so is it advisable to just carefully scoop out the lid with the attached fry and transfer them into a rearing tank? Or should I wait a couple of days, and only remove them after they've absorbed the yolksac and are more free swimming?

[L number Banana]

Hi Cory_lover,
It looks like they just keep spawning if conditions are right, take a read through this thread that ozarowana posted earlier.
http://www.perthcichlid.com.au/forum/in ... =2390&st=0
She moved them to another small fry tank with a slow bubbler.
Sounds similar to the cory hatching info on the Corys et al page (http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... f=6&t=8726)

[ozarowana]

My last spawn I left in the tank, but the majority of the 30-40 eggs disappeared overnight. I moved the lid to another tank but they fungused after a couple of days.

They spawned again yesterday and I immediately removed the lid to another tank and darkened the tank with a towel to see if this helps.

Note: not much aggression was observed in the group, a bit of chasing but nothing major.

[grokefish]

All good stuff, still looking for some more hoplos to go with my last surviving one.

Matt

[MatsP]

They have some small ones at Lynchford Aquatics, imported from Czech republic apparently. I'm sure that there is a wholesaler with a bunch of them in stock somewhere in the country.

--
Mats

[hoplo]

Congratulation Cory_lover on your Thoracatums spawning.

What we do;

When we need some Thoracatum all we do is put a lid (as big as a dinner plate) in the adult Thoracatum tank, within a day or so they have spawned, its best not to have anything else floating like plant etc. as it make things harder when it comes to hatching them.

After the adult have spawned we leave the eggs with them until the eggs get really dark, unless it looks like they may be eating them, which is usually a female.

On spawning Andy makes up the fry tank, (best size for raising them is 2ft 6" x 2ft x 6"deep, they need more surface area then depth) totally cleans the tank out and fills it with clean fresh water, puts a sponge filter in which was been used in another tank but cleaned in tank water, gets two glass milk bottles (jam jars at the same size will do too) fills them with water to weight them down.

If all the eggs are on the lid it a lot easier, just put the lid in the fry tank with the egg side facing up so you can see the eggs, place the sponge filter so that the water that is coming out of the end is flowing over the eggs, please the milk bottles so that the lid does not float away. If any eggs are on plants, just place the plants in the fry tank.

When all the fry have hatch remove the lid and the milk bottles. You can leave any plants in for now and can be removed when fry are about 1cm.

We feed them newly hatch brine shrimp as soon as the yolk sack has gone, we feed shrimp until they are about an inch long then slowly put them on to a high protein food.

Water change them 50% a day for best results.

If you need any more info, just ask.

Vicky.

[ozarowana]

Second spawn fungused.

Third spawn was not only laid on the lid, but also all over the tank floor. Removed them all bar the male. Eggs on lid disappeared overnight and the rest fungused a few days later.

Have now put a single female in with the male.

[L number Banana]

Don't despair, you must be doing something right for them to keep spawning. I just read over Hoplos post to see if there may be any answers to the fungus. It looks like they make sure there's good flow over the eggs. Was your set-up the same? Lots of water flowing over the eggs, the ones on the lid at least?
Have you got a fry tank that you could move them to if the male is eating them?

Maybe you'll get more ideas from the other posters too.

Mine are just growing and doing nothing but eating