Parotocinclus sp. (3)

AleGer · Post by **AleGer** » 13 May 2009, 21:29

Is there any information about feeding and breeding Parotocinclus sp. (3)?
I can't find any.

Eyal · Post by **Eyal** » 07 Jun 2009, 17:03

need answers also:
water parameter
diet
etc...

Eyal

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 08 Jun 2009, 09:13

For most of that information, you should be able to use the information available on other similar Parotocinclus species, such as .

--
Mats

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 08 Jun 2009, 11:51

I agree with MatsP, but would like to add that while I have never kept sp3 myself I'm told that it is allegedly extremely sensitive and difficult to keep alive.
It has probably never been bred in captivity.

DutchFry · Post by **DutchFry** » 08 Jun 2009, 18:38

mike i'm told the very same thing! this is also true for Nannoptopoma sp. Peru, sadly...

is it clear already if this Parotocinclus is a real species, or is it fry of L229?

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 08 Jun 2009, 19:11

DutchFry wrote:is it clear already if this Parotocinclus is a real species, or is it fry of L229?

I do not know if it's ever been cleared up, but my amateur guess is that it is the fry of L229.

AleGer · Post by **AleGer** » 09 Jun 2009, 11:41

I do not know if it's ever been cleared up, but my amateur guess is that it is the fry of L229.

I've got paratocinclus sp. 3. That's for sure. They are quite sensetive, but I think that it is possible to breed them.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 09 Jun 2009, 14:21

AleGer wrote:
I do not know if it's ever been cleared up, but my amateur guess is that it is the fry of L229.
I've got paratocinclus sp. 3. That's for sure.

Yes, but there is speculation that what is sold as "Parotocinclus sp. 3" are in fact juvenile L229. If you compare the image in the cat-elog of a confirmed juvenile L229 I think you'll see why people suspect this - it's pretty much identical to "Parotocinclus sp. 3".
Also, to be honest "Parotocinclus sp. 3" doesn't much look like a Parotocinclus at all, but I do not know for sure that it's not some other small undescribed loricariid which just happens to look very much like a juvenile L229.

EDIT: I made this collage of pictures from the cat-elog:

As you can see the only difference is that one fish is slightly lighter than the other, pigmentation pattern is identical. The one on the left was sold as Parotocinclus sp3, the one on the right is a juvenile L229.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 09 Jun 2009, 17:24

I do not believe Parotocincls sp 3 or the very similar Parotocinclus cf. epplyei are juveniles of another species but are actually dwarf Loricaridae species in their own right.

I have nominally Parotocinclus cf. epplyei from a Brazilian exporter while there is a similar looking fish coming from Peruvian exporters.
I'm pretty sure these fish do not grow to much more than 1 inch. I have 6 now with 12 more on their way.
I have decided to make a project out of them to try to learn more about how to best keep them and ultimately breed them if I can.
I have become very interested in theses little Loricaridae. I am not so sure if they are actually a Parotocinclus spp but that is just my impression. They look a good deal like a 2 month old truncated Sturisoma aureum fry to me but I know they aren't a Sturisoma.
From what I have been told in private correspondence with a few others who managed to keep them alive for about 2 years, the fish do not grow larger than 1 inch.
Mine cleaned off every bit of algae which I had allowed to build up on the sides and back glass in less than a month but they also like algae wafers, Spirulina and earth worm stick foods. Their willingness to eat these foods is a good sign that their nutritional needs may be adequately met with prepared foods and that they are not entirely dependent on algae growth.

I am keeping my specimens at 82*F/27.5*C, 75 ppm TDS, pH 6.6. They are very active and chase each other away should they come too close to one another although when they are eating the prepared foods off the bottom they tolerate each others' close proximity and concentrate on feeding.
I do not believe that they should be kept as cool as Parotocinclus jumbo.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 09 Jun 2009, 19:13

Well, at the very least one can say that this is an issue where time will tell. If the sp. 3's still look like sp3's in a years time, they're probably not anybodys juveniles.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 Jun 2009, 18:49

I kind of wonder if the fry in the L229 profile is a mistake?

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 10 Jun 2009, 22:04

apistomaster wrote:I kind of wonder if the fry in the L229 profile is a mistake?

Well... See this thread:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... us#p125172

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 Jun 2009, 22:21

Mike,
Thanks for posting the link to the older thread.
I can't speak to the Peruvian fish but only to the Brazilian sourced fish which look very similar. I have to say that I cannot be 100% certain that my specimens are from Brazil, only that they were exported from Brazil.
Like I said before, I have had contact with others who have kept the nominal Parotocinclus cf. epplyei and their 2 year old specimens are still only about 1 inch. I've had mine for about 3 months without seeing any further growth.
I will soon have about 18 specimens from the same source and plan to set them up in a species tank for further studies on their maintenance and reproductive biology, if get so lucky.
They are a very interesting little fish.

Others will have to resolve the identity issues of the Peruvian fish which strongly resemble those I have.

Eyal · Post by **Eyal** » 10 Jun 2009, 22:59

Sadly all of them (7)died in two days
I am suppose to get in few days again
and will try to keep them alive this time
any suggestion ?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jun 2009, 23:16

What symptoms did they have?

It's highly likely that they suffer from "too much travel and not enough care" - small Loricariidae are often in bad condition when they arrive to the shop. Better to leave them in the shop for a while to let them settle in. Let the shop take the losses.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 Jun 2009, 23:20

I keep mine in soft water, 60-75 ppm TDS, pH ranges between 6.6 to 7.o and I keep them at about 84*F.
I would recommend new specimens go into a tank with a well established coating of algae on the back and sides.
They are used to algae and that buys some time to acclimate them to some prepared foods.
I would be surprised if some weaker specimens died right away but for those that last a week their chances of surviving should improve.
They are extremely delicate fish. no way of getting around that.
Do not make them have to compete with any Plecos or Corydoras. Perhaps OK to keep with Corydoras habrous, C. pymeus or C. hastatus.
Absolutely do not force them to share with a common Ancistrus.

I am keeping mine with one pair of Apistogramma trifasciatus and 4 specimens of Pangio oblongata, a solid brown Kulli Loach in a 10 gal.
I plan to move them and 12 incoming new ones to a well established and algae covered 20 Long. The new tank has similar water and 2 sponge filters. One sponge filter is being used with the air lift and the second sponge filter is driven by a 160 gph power head.
I have a considerable amount of water currents which they seem to enjoy.
Hope this info is of some help.
I concur with MatsP above post. Let the shop absorb the initial losses. The only problem with that is because they need such good conditions asap there may not be any that survive their time in the shop's tanks. It is a difficult call.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 10 Jun 2009, 23:39

Absolutely do force them to share with a common Ancistrus.

I'm 100% sure that is missing a NOT between do and force.

And I would agree with that.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 Jun 2009, 00:27

MatsP wrote:
Absolutely do force them to share with a common Ancistrus.
I'm 100% sure that is missing a NOT between do and force.

And I would agree with that.

--
Mats

Fixed that.

Eyal · Post by **Eyal** » 11 Jun 2009, 19:40

MatsP wrote:What symptoms did they have?

It's highly likely that they suffer from "too much travel and not enough care" - small Loricariidae are often in bad condition when they arrive to the shop. Better to leave them in the shop for a while to let them settle in. Let the shop take the losses.

--
Mats

I didn't notice any symptoms

5 died in the bag on the way home
the remaining two after two days
they were very small (about 1.5 cm' )
Thank you for your advise
I'll do that till next week -I hope some of them will survive in the shop

nvcichlids · Post by **nvcichlids** » 12 Jun 2009, 23:13

I think they are seperate species. the eyes on the L229 seem to be larger than the eyes on the paraoto's. That is just my observations, along with the iris coloring seems to be different.

AleGer · Post by **AleGer** » 15 Jun 2009, 09:18

Yes, but there is speculation that what is sold as "Parotocinclus sp. 3" are in fact juvenile L229. If you compare the image in the cat-elog of a confirmed juvenile L229 I think you'll see why people suspect this - it's pretty much identical to "Parotocinclus sp. 3".
Also, to be honest "Parotocinclus sp. 3" doesn't much look like a Parotocinclus at all, but I do not know for sure that it's not some other small undescribed loricariid which just happens to look very much like a juvenile L229.

In the prise they were sold as CARACHAMA ENANA. When I ordered them I knew that it can as Paratocinclus sp. 3 as L229's fries. And when they arrived I noticed that this fish definitely belongs to subfamily Hypotopomatinae not to Hypostominae.
By the way this is the photo of the fish that arrived to me.

On first week at least 15 of 50 died. But Later the rest were OK. Almost 3 month past since I've got them. And I don't see any further growth.

apistomaster Thanks for you information:)
I put mine in 30 l. tank with 2 paracheridon axelordi. Water very soft (from RO filter) 25-29 C.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Jun 2009, 09:22

What keys are you determining the subfamily on? [I'm by no means saying you are wrong, just trying to learn what to look for, should I ever be in that situtation]

--
Mats

AleGer · Post by **AleGer** » 15 Jun 2009, 09:48

What keys are you determining the subfamily on? [I'm by no means saying you are wrong, just trying to learn what to look for, should I ever be in that situtation]

You see, I think fish from Hypotopomatinae and Hypostominae subfamily has rather different behaviour.
This fish's behaviour is similar to otocinclus not to hypastomus.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my intuition + the fakt that they aren't getting bigger is telling that it is parotocinclus sp. 3.

Post by **Borbi** » 15 Jun 2009, 09:51

Hi Mats,

..although I don´t know how AleGer did it: I would check for evertible cheek odontodes. L 229 should have them (probably not immediately apparent on 3cm fry, but still..), while hypoptopomatine catfish should not have them.

Cheers, Sandor

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Jun 2009, 09:53

Hmm. Behaviour can be a difficult thing to judge species by, since it's affected by so many things - you can certainly see a different behaviour between fry, small juveniles, larger juveniles and adult fish in many species. To give an example, are very friendly towards brothers/sisters up to about 1.5" (40mm) size. Once they reach that size, they start to fight each other, particularly males start defining their territory.

Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'd sort of expect the 1-2" fry of a fish that grows to 5-10x that size would possibly behave quite different from the adults.

--
Mats

AleGer · Post by **AleGer** » 15 Jun 2009, 10:10

Hmm. Behaviour can be a difficult thing to judge species by, since it's affected by so many things - you can certainly see a different behaviour between fry, small juveniles, larger juveniles and adult fish in many species. To give an example, Ancistrus cf_cirrhosus are very friendly towards brothers/sisters up to about 1.5" (40mm) size. Once they reach that size, they start to fight each other, particularly males start defining their territory.

Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'd sort of expect the 1-2" fry of a fish that grows to 5-10x that size would possibly behave quite different from the adults.

100%
Yes, you are right. But I have some experience of maintaining fries of subfamily Hypostominae and fish from subfamily Hypotopomatinae. And I can see the difference. I know that it isn't the best way to determine it, but it isn't a bad way:)

You see quite well comparing of paratocinclus sp.3 and L229 I need both species. But I have only one:( So I'm trying to use all possible factors to determine subfamily.

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