Am I doing it right?

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 10:46

Guys

Please don't get upset if I am not providing my fish with the best care possible, please bare in mind I am posting this thread to see if I am and if not what I should be doing because I care about my fish.

I am concerned reading threads on here that certain areas of what I do with my tank are incorrect but then again I don't have fish die on me however that may be more luck than judgement!

The Tank:

A Juwel RIO450 5 foot bow fronted tank

The Filtration

The standard Juwel filter and an Ehiem ecco filter on the other end

The Stock

1 x 1 yr old black tiger oscar - 8"ish - Grown up from an infant
6 x Jack Dempsey's - Two of these are a 5 year old adult breeding pair I grow up from babes and the other four (1 male, 3 female) are offspring - Varing legnths 3" - 7"
A giant giraffe cat - 16" - 18" (rescued from a tank that was for too small!)
A red tail x tiger shovel nose hybrid - 16" - 18" - Brought at a length of 12"
And a red sail fin pleco - She's about 12" - 14"

The Feeding- once every 2-3 days

2 x frozen cubes of crill
2 x frozen cubes of blood worm
3-4 lance fish
Big pinch on chiclid pelets
Big pinch of cat fish pelets
A chunk of cucumber (I've already been informed I require a better variety, quality of veg)

The Maintainance

30% Water change every 2-3 weeks
Wadding in Ehiem filter changed every time
Wadding in Juwel filter changed every time
Carbon pad in Juwel changed every other time

The area I'm most concerned about is the maintainance because people seem to do a lot more than I do but as I say my fish don't die, don't seem stressed, feed well and are very active but if I can do any more for them I'd like to.

Thanks in advance for any advice

Dave

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 21 Apr 2009, 11:49

There is a lot of varience in maintenance regimes so there is no definitive guide but if you look at your tank it is approx 60x24 inches floor plan, allowing circa 144 inches of tankmates maximum. You currently have approx 85" of fish in the tank so are understocked by this rule. That said you have bigger, messy fish which produce lots of waste & the only way to remove it is by water changing. No matter how much filtration there is , the waste is still in the system being slowly broken down. Fish are quite tough & can tolerate it to a degree but this is living on a knife edge & it only takes a little something out of the ordinary to cause massive problems. regular water changes keep this in check. I do 25% weekly (minimum) on my bigger tanks & 40-50% weekly or 20% every 2 days on my smaller tanks. This is because bigger volumes are generally more stable.

That said as a general rule we also say to keep fish in a tank that is 4 times longer than their max size by a width twice their length(minimum) - therefore you should have no fish bigger than 12" - exceeding this can stress the fish. Your giraffe & hybrid pim will both exceed 3 feet, pushing 4 so really need a tank or pond with a footprint of 12x6 feet minimum. in the tank you have they are both severely restricted as would have huge territories in the wild (based on the parents of the pim) & in confined spaces be quite disruptive.Stress doesn't always manifest itself in clearly visible signs, particulalrly in bigger fish, they'll seem fine for ages & then catastrophe strikes. (as a comparison, think about the constantly nagged husband, years of nagging, him taking it all the time until the day he snaps & hits her over the head with a hammer!) See the similarities...everything fine for ages until something happens.

I would reccommend testing the water on a weekly basis. Certainly you want to see readings of zero ammonia & zero nitrite & then aim to keep nitrate minimal - there'll always be a little. Based on these readings youshould be able to determine the best water change regime for your set-up.

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:01

Right if this helps I've just tested the water. It's due for a clean this weekend so this should in theory be the worst time for the water quality.

I'm pleased to report I have zero amonia, zero nitrites, zero nitrates and a ph of 7.2. As the readings seem ok should I sick to my stardard pattern and just keep an eye on the water quality?

I appreciate the cat's are going to well and truely out grow the tank. Looking more closely they are both about 15"-16" at the moment so I'm just about ok length wise at this point and 6" short of width, hopefully that won't stress them too much and they won't grow too much before I've got the next tank sorted. The plan is for the 2 cat's to get a new tank mate (an RTC) and be moved in to a 6' x 4' x 5' tank. Now I know this still won't do it forever but it should give me a good 10 year stop gap to either move home and then set up a pond or decide to stay here and build a pond. Either way once the pond is in I shall never be moving again! lol

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:09

There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you have zero nitrates. My water isn't zero nitrates coming out of the tap, and whilst your water may not come from the same place, you aren't exactly the other end of the country from me. I also checked the Water Quality Map on PFK, and it says tap-water in Ipswich has about 36 mg/l of nitrate - it may be a bit lower or higher in your tap, but unlikely to be dramatically different. Unless you are using RO water of course.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:12

Well ok, maybe not zero lol but according to the test I've just run it's less than 5mg/l. As I say it is a couple of weeks since fresh water last went in.

Richard B · Post by **Richard B** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:15

mats is right, here - evryone has some nitrate, we just need to keep it minimal. Unless you use Reverse Osmosis water as Mats says - is your kit accurate?

EDIT - less than 5mg/l is ok - a reading of zero is always a problem sign, generally with the test kit!

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 13:23

I've just tested the tap water, think the kit is up the wall, off to the LFS now!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Apr 2009, 14:43

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) wrote:I've just tested the tap water, think the kit is up the wall, off to the LFS now!

Let me guess; Your test-kit is more than a year old? I have had that happen, and many with me.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 15:18

Yes Mats you guessed right!

Ok, new test kit.

Ph - 7.2
GH - 180 mg/l
KH - 80 mg/l
Nitrite - 0 mg/l
Nitrate - 70 mg/l

Time for several big water changes?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Apr 2009, 15:52

70 ppm nitrate isn't great, but it's not over the top either. Remember, your tap-water is unlikely to be much under forty - so no matter how much water you replace, you won't get under that. I use RO water to keep it low in some of my tanks.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 15:54

Well I'm glad the water isn't terrible! As I say it's due for a change this weekend anyway. I'll test the tap water when I get the chance.

My biggest problem is room now. We're looking at an interim 8' x 3' x 2' 6" custom tank that probably needs ordering with in the next few weeks!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Apr 2009, 16:11

8 x 3 x 2.5 sounds like a nice size tank - that's 1600+ liters nominally - I wouldn't mind having one of those!

Are you having it drilled for a sump? That seems like an ideal way to solve the filtration - it's not very much money to have a sump-tank built, and the pump to circulate water and filter media will cost a bit less than a large external filter system - you are looking at something like an OceanRunner 3500 or Eheim 1260/1262 type of thing to pump the water up to the tank.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 21 Apr 2009, 21:45

Well to be honest Mats it's something I need to look in to.

I only really seriously started looking at this a few days ago. We have a sensible plan that will work for the fish now which is to get this custom tank built for my current tank mates (I'm not sure weather to leave the big cichlid's in the 450 or move them as well).

The plan is this will buy me 5 years to get the first extension done to the house and then decide if we move up market to a property which we can build a pond in or build the second extension and then build a pond in that.

After this I will get the last 2 fish I wish to own which is the RTC and a Zebra Shovel Nose. That seems most sensible.

As far as filtration on what realistically is an interim tank in this plan

I was considering a sump but the guy at my LFS said it might be an idea to consider pond filters. What do you think?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 21 Apr 2009, 23:48

When I say "sump", it doesn't have to be a glass-containter. I have home-made sump filters (3 of them by now) that I've made from 4gal "loft tanks" (traditionally used for central heating systems) - they take a fair bit more than 4gal if you do not need to have a float-valve and other gubbins that normally "belong" in there. And under a big tank like the one you are looking at, you could easily fit a couple of 25 gal loft-tanks, or some such. Or a pond-filter, which is usually built around the same idea as my home-made sump filers [that's how I got the idea, basically].

These look quite nice, and a bit more professional than mine:
http://www.koicarp.org.uk/koi_filters.htm#professional

Here's my construction:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 1&p=142851

There are a few advantages with a sump-system over other filtration systems:
1. Larger volume of water overall - helps keep the system stable.
2. Hides most of the filtration and heating components out of harms way (RTC's tend to "eat" things such as heaters and filter intakes/outlets).
3. Water changes are made easy, if you have an overflow system on the sump - just trickle in clean water.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 10:13

Thanks for the info Mats. A sump certainly seems to be the best way to go however I'm not sure I have the skills to build one!

I don't fancy the idea of cutting holes in a £2000 tank! Apparently my LFS uses the same guy that does the sea life centre to build custom tanks so perhaps I'll have them make holes in the right places in it and build the rest myself.

Am I right in saying if I had the holes put in the tank in the right place it would be right for either a pond filter or a home made sump?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 10:17

Yes, it doesn't make much difference if you build your own or have a ready-made filter solution, you need the same type of holes.

And I would be a bit nervous drilling a £2000 tank too - perhaps better to pay someone else £25 per hole. I have drilled 10 tanks by now, but they are all in the < £100 price-category, so my savings account wouldn't suffer that badly if I got it wrong...

You may want to have a chat with the builder himself, as he probably knows more than I do about fitting filters to large tanks.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 10:37

Well thanks anyway for all the assistant. I've been told 6-8 weeks wait for the tank and I recon my guys have a maximum of 6 months left in the 450 now so I'll order it in July just to be on the safe side.

I'm gonna have to take part of the new kitchen I've build apart to house the new tank for a while till we can extend (if we can't the missus is gonna kill me but that's a risk I'm willing to take!).

Would I be best leaving the oscar and the jacks in the 450 or moving them across as well do you reckon?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 10:52

I'd probably leave the smaller fish in the "small" tank. Then when you have the pond done, you can get the big tank for the oscar etc.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:05

I'm please you've confirmed what I was thinking about my stock. I thought it would make sense to leave the jacks and oscar in the 450 and move them up when the cats move out of the custom tank.

Hmmmm, it's going to be interesting, 1600 litre tank, 3 fish lol. I could take on some more big plec's I suppose, oh well cross that bridge when we come to it methinks!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:13

But those are three BIG fish - probably the right amount!

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:16

Oh don't get me wrong once they've grown a bit it'll be fine but to my eye the 450 looks just about stocked at the moment so taking less than half of it's inhabitants and putting them in a tank 4 times as big will look slightly bizarre for the first few years but they'll grow in to it. lol

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:20

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) wrote:Oh don't get me wrong once they've grown a bit it'll be fine but to my eye the 450 looks just about stocked at the moment so taking less than half of it's inhabitants and putting them in a tank 4 times as big will look slightly bizarre for the first few years but they'll grow in to it. lol

I actually think it will look "right" pretty soon after. You are currently used to an over-stocked tank, so yes, it will look a bit empty for a bit, but the fish will be behaving better.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:26

Well the 3 of them need the tank, that is obvious and as they are my responsibility that's what they are going to get.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:28

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) wrote:Well the 3 of them need the tank, that is obvious and as they are my responsibility that's what they are going to get.

Yes, I didn't mean that - but you are looking at your tank right now, seeing lots of fish. Yes, when you move them, there will be a lot less fish in the tank per volume of water. But remember, it's only about 2x the size in each direction (slightly less in height) - it's not that much bigger!

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 11:59

Oh I'm sure, I'm just looking at the gap it's going in think jesus it's going to be huge! lol

Any suggestions for rocks, plants, wood, gravel/sand etc for the new one?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 12:03

Considerign the giraffe cat, go for a medium-coarse gravel - 2-4mm grain size, perhaps.

Large pieces of slate may work fairly well to make hiding spaces and such.

Plants will probably not work that well - big potted plants would have a slight chance - nothing planted in the gravel will survive the giraffe.

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Mats

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 12:08

Ok so really just more of what I have in the 450?

Martin S · Post by **Martin S** » 22 Apr 2009, 12:16

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) wrote:Ok so really just more of what I have in the 450?

I'd say yes, pretty much...except lots more of it, and much bigger pieces!

Bigcatsrus(the bf!) · Post by **Bigcatsrus(the bf!)** » 22 Apr 2009, 12:29

Martin S wrote:I'd say yes, pretty much...except lots more of it, and much bigger pieces!

Now even novis boy over here worked that one out

lol

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Apr 2009, 12:47

I'd go for a finer gravel.

Also, floating plants may work.

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Mats

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