C*****D question

[bigward]

Sorry about this but I not in any other forums and I am at a loss .......... I have had a female Rotkeil Se*erum for quite a while now so I introduced a wild male 3 weeks ago to hopefully get them to breed. Initially she beat him up so he would hide all the time, anyway 3 days ago he must have finally got his bravery back to the extent he has almost killed the female now (I am suprised she is still alive). I am treating her in a quarenteen tank but it does'nt look good.

Exactly how do you introduce a new c*****d into a tank without world war 3 kicking off as it looks like I am now going to have to find a new female.

Sorry once more for asking a question about c*****d's.

[Bas Pels]

Perhaps my method is not the most used, but I keep my cichlids in large tanks- almost never in a 1 species tank

Well, all these fish are dithers for the others.

But I hardly have this problem, as I normally buy young fishes, and give them a few years to mature

[sidguppy]

agreed

dithers are often mandatory, not just decorative

there are a lot of issues when paring off adult cichlids.
it's difficult, but not impossible

1: tanksize. it still amazes me how many people -especially in the cichlidkeeperscommunity- put large or agressive fish in too small tanks or crowd too much.
I've seen fish like this Heros in 55g/200L or 75G/300L tanks, while I sure wouldn't want to keep it in any tank smaller than 125G/500L
as cichlids go this isn't even an overly agressive species......

2: territorium! when you add an adult fish into a tank where there's another adult fish, you put it smack in the middle of a settled territory. most often the newcomer is in the fight of it's life from day1.
even if it survives, there will be no balanced-out match. this is what happened to your fish

3: furniture. i've seen bare tanks, tanks without a dark backdrop, tanks with plastic Elvis bubbling up from his coffin without any proper hide-outs; you name it.
a cichlid tank for a larger pair should have adequate hiding places, perferable at least 1 per fish, but more is better.

4: dithers. even a run-off-the-mill-turned-in pleco can be a fine dither. a "common enemy" has matched more pairs than you can ever imagine.
fish that would kill each other with great enthousiasm and vigor unite together and turn out to be great parents against a common threat.
this doesn't have to be a single large or spiny fish; a herd of highly active small fishes can work just as well; this is the reason why many people of the smaller Central American cichlidspecies add large groups of livebearers with great results.
Cryptoheros for example can be very nasty to each other, but when confronted with 30 Poecilia as fry predators, they pair up and defend their fry together.

in this case I think it's best if you start over; find a new home for your Heros and try; this time with a smaller species, or at least with a group of young Heros

a few questions to get a good start:
-what is the tanksize?
-what do you have for substrate or furniture?
-wich biotope you like best for cichlids? (South America, Central America, African rift etc)
a picture of the tank in question will help a lot!

[bigward]

Thanks for those pointers - here are the answers to some of your questions.

tank size is 4x2x2 and I have very small pea gravel as the substrate
the tank has loads of bogwood, coconut's in but no plants as the se*erums kept uprooting them
other fish in the tank (apart from the 2 c*****ds) include 4 clown loaches (about 4" got these to control snail numbers), 6 emporer tetras, 6 sterbai corys and 3 L200's (2 of which are about 6")

Biotope - was aiming for South American but as I found clown loaches the best for control of snail population that has sort of diminished slightly

If I can get my digital camera working I will take some shots tomight.

I may have the possibility to get another (wild) female from the same source as the male (they were kept in the same tank). Appreciate what your saying about starting again but I spent £45 on it 3 weeks ago and its a beauty of a fish.

[sidguppy]

4x2x2, that's feet, right?

there you go...that tank is WAAYYYY too small, especially too short to keep Heros.

and the amount of cash isn't relevant; the fish won't care, even if you paid a grand each.

Heros is mild as larger Southies go, but Heros cannot be kept in a 4 foot tank.
you'd need a 6 footer to keep them properly, they need to avoid each other and tanklength is the way to go.

remember; if fish die (not counting old age) it's always the fishkeepers mistake, not the fish.
they just do what they're supposed to do.

[bigward]

Yes thats feet - I know of a fair few people who keep breeding pairs in tanks this size then remove the eggs into other tanks (not that I am arguing with you)

I will have a re-think about them .............. would any earth eaters be ok in a tank that size ? if not I would probably just end up getting some livebearers

[apistomaster]

A 4 X 2 X2 ft tank, ~120 gal, is a fine size of tank for keeping Heros spp.
Heros are not very aggressive nor as territorial as many other SA Cichlids of similar size.

I have actual managed to breed a pair of 8 inch common aquarium strain Heros in a 15 gal tank!
Not what I recommend but I mention it to show how far off base claims stating you need a tank larger than 120 gals are.
If one can't make Heros happy in a 120 gal tank then I question the approach one is taking and would be looking for other reasons why it hasn't worked.

Using temporary a divider made of egg crate fluorescent light diffuser material is a tried and true method of introducing new large Cichlids to each other, particularly when trying to pair some that have not been raised together. I have never found this method necessary but it might be sometimes.

I decided to breed Oscars when I still owned a fish shop. I merely accumulated various large Oscars from customer trade ins and fed them heavily with earthworms, let them thrash out their differences and allowed the testing that accompanies most large Cichlids' pairing behavior until I had 2 pairs out of 6 adult Oscars. You have to expect some fireworks but it can be a mistake to not allow them to thrash out their differences by breaking them up too soon.

[Bas Pels]

common aquarium strain

In my eyes, these are the magical words

I kept 2 pairs of Heros in my big tank - 4 meter * 1 meter - that is over 13 feet * more than 3 feet footprint tank

Introducing them at 10 cm (4 inches) they started breeding at 15 cm / 6 inches

Their territory was the most dark part of the tank, with an awfull lot of wood. This measured over 1,5 meter - 6 feet

Keeping this kind of fish in a 100 * 50 cm footprint tank would be the best recepy for partner murder

Please note, Apistomaster, the fishes we are talking about are wild ones - I think as agressive as mine, or more (mine were blue, not as brightly colored as redhead Heros, and brightly colored fish are most often more agressive)

So I can not agree a 4 * 2 * 2 feet tank is anywhere acceptable for them

[apistomaster]

Hi Bas,
I guarantee you that more than 99% of the successful breeders of wild Rotkeil Heros in the USA are using tanks no more than 6 feet long.

How many American aquarists have or know of anyone with an aquarium 13 meters!long?

[Bas Pels]

13 meters!long?

units

4 meters = 13 feet - so now my tank is 13 meters

my house is 11 meters, from the front to the back, with sdome stairs in the middle

[apistomaster]

Bas,
You got me there. My mistake about the 13 meters vs your actual 4 meters tank.
I am sure I am not alone in my envy over your having such a nice large aquarium.
They just don't make them that large here unless one special orders a larger tank.
In the USA we have mostly 6 ft long tanks with the exception of the 240 gal, 8 feet long, which is the largest of the standard sized manufactured tanks.

Wild Heros spp are still not considered a particularly aggressive group compared to many of the other larger sized SA Cichlids.
Breeding them in the USA standard 125 gal, 6 feet long tank is not difficult and F1 Heros sp. Rotkeil have become widely available over here at very affordable prices. They have become one of the most popular of the large SA Cichlids in the USA in recent years. The OP's 4 X 2 X 2 feet tank is 120 gal and offers 1152 sq inches vs 1296 sq inches of floor space of the common 6 feet, 125 gal tank, a negligible difference for a pair. Either tank is large enough to grow out 6 young fish to obtain a pair. They will pair off long before reaching their potential maximum size.
The pair may be left alone in either of these tanks where they should not have any problems spawning and caring for their fry until it is time to remove the fry to a grow out tank.
Heros spp are not unique among the larger SA Cichlids with respect to their often rough courtship behaviors which always bears watching in case it should get out of hand but I stand by my statement that is can also be mistake to intervene at the the sign of the first split fin. It just goes with the territory. The members of a prospective pair must always establish to each fish's satisfaction that it's prospective mate has the right stuff.

[MatsP]

The largest "stock" tanks you can get in this country are about 2m/6'6" long and around 600-800 liter(approx 150-200g), and I'm pretty sure this applies to the rest of Europe as well. Anything bigger is definite special order. I wish I had space for a 4m long tank.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

it is, and besides, made on the spot, as it is almost impossioble to transport it

However, all my tanks are custom made. space is expensie, more expensive than the tank to fill it, so I will not settle for a lousy fit, I want the space I have to be used as good as possible

Further almost all commercial tanks are higher than the tank width. Mine are almost all less high (8 out of the 30 are as high as the witdh) and that also requires custom made tanks

Luckely we have a builder in our town, I'm on fist name basis with them, who does not require any advance payment and so on

[MatsP]

I'm on fist name basis with them

With or without boxing gloves? ;)
[Sorry, couldn't resist - I make typing mistakes too].

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

Some typos are fun indeed