F.vittatus mating display or territory?

[L number Banana]

Hi, I found info on spawning and everything after but does anyone know how or if they have elaborate mating displays? It may be that I have two of one sex and they are deciding who's who. They're young (I think) but one has maybe(?) bumps on his snout. The bumps are barely there and haven't grown any further so maybe I'm just seeing what I want to

Anyway this is what's happening: They were on either side of a mushroom slice and things were fine when they had the opposite side, when they got to the edge, they started bumping each other off. One would go back on and the other would follow, they would leave the mushroom and go for a twirl in the water. I think one must have clamped/held? the other to stay so close when twirling around but it was too fast to see. They both went in different directions after. At this point neither looks bigger than the other belly-wise.
They're not new tank mates and they both frequently hang together very close. Never saw this behaviour until tonight. They've never gone near any of the cave type areas but I've seen them in the plants, on the wood, glass, sharing zucchini etc. Hubby saw them bumping each other when beside each other on the glass.

Any guesses? Maturing same sex territory fight or a couple getting snuggly?

[L number Banana]

Hmm, my yellow-black twiggy seems to be stressed about the little fight
Look at the fading! I'll keep my eye on her. No injuries that I can see on either but the more traditionally coloured F.vitattus has retained his/her colour.
Sorry for the crappy picture!

[gedtranter]

Hey fellow Farlowella keeper! I now have 5 and see quite a lot of the behaviour you describe, mainly at feeding time and after dark. It's difficult to say exactly what they are doing, it would help a lot if you knew the sexes. The easiest way to tell might be to wait until lights out when the room is dark (when mine get really active over the front glass) and until they are both on the glass. Grab a small torch and quickly compare the rostrums, a bit of backlighting from the torch helps the bristles stand out. I have 3 males and 2 females. The 2 smallest are both 10cm, one male and one female. When you compare these two, the small bristles are evident, not very big though. The female is completely smooth and has a proportionately shorter rostrum. From what I have read when they do spawn it won't be in a cave, likely a sheltered spot on the glass or somewhere equally smooth.

[L number Banana]

Hi Thanks for the reply! Farlowella keepers are kinda scarce!
My two were thought to be male and female because I thought I could see bumps - just barely - on the rostrum of one but now I'm wondering if they're both one gender. They're quite active in the daytime and I can take pictures of them side by side but they're no different in the length of their rostrums (yet?). They only differ in colour at the moment. One seems to change colour when it's on the black slate for a while versus on the white sand, it goes pale on the sand but not completely, more like the picture in the earlier post. The back of the stripe tends to fade. This is the one that is much more yellow than tan. Also the ventral view of this one is light all the way down, whereas the other stays dark.

I'm thinking that if they're both young males, maybe the one that keeps his darker colour is the alpha male and the other is trying to 'disappear' sometimes. I've got more on order, hopefully they'll be an opposite sex in there.

Have you bred them or are trying to?

Also, I just remembered something funny. The paler one frequently eats right in front of the syno cave. The syno bumps everyone else away from the entrance and never bothers with the Twig. Brave little fish!

[gedtranter]

What size are yours? I'm not sure at what size they are sexually mature but my big male has a nose like a chain saw, the bristles are that pronounced. I have a female that has a big fat belly, I'm expecting and hoping to find eggs each morning but nothing so far.

As for the colours I know what you mean, it seems that I have a couple of different base types. Three are the yellowish ones with a brown stripe you mention and I have two more that have more of a mottled look to them, it may just be chance but the mottled ones appear to be the two girls. They are all pretty good at changing colours though. I haven't had them long enough to get used to what is 'normal'.

[L number Banana]

I haven't had mine long either. Maybe a month or so? I think they're just over 3" but it's nightime right now so I can see them to measure
Here's a very fuzzy picture of the twins - it's the only picture I have on this computer But it's easy enough to see the colour difference of the underside.


Did you already look at the species page to confirm that your five are the same? I've heard that F.vitattus is the only common one but the markings of your mottled ones sound very nice. Post a picture when you get a chance. I'm sure other 'Stick People' would like to see them too.

Is there any other fish in the tanks that might be snacking on the eggs? There's a nice breeding article here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=246

[gedtranter]

There are some Apistogramma in the tank that would snack on eggs no doubt, but there would at least be a residue on the glass I think.

Its hard to get photos of them as you know, maybe to call them 'mottled' is a bit stong but there is a definite difference.

It would be good to know at what age/size they are sexually mature. Anyone know?

[gedtranter]

So what would be the samllest size that these guys regularly spawn at anybody?

[L number Banana]

Hello again,
I haven't been able to find anything else on spawning. It seems the people who have had them spawn had fish closer to 5 inches but no one was specific. Everything just says 'mature'
I don't suppose you know if the unfertilized eggs are bright green? I've spent the last little while trying to get a picture of a cory baby and couldn't get it in focus but I came across a batch of green eggs?? I only have two sets regular corys (white/tan eggs), cherry barbs, a single syno, a Panaque maccus and the two farlowella. I know some eggs from rineloricaria are green but I don't have those. Neither Farlowella are gravid.

[MatsP]

Green eggs does indeed sound like Farlowella eggs.

--
Mats

[L number Banana]

OMG!! really?? They didn't look green in the Cat-elog pics but sometimes pics get washed out with the flash.
My fish don't look gravid or big enough at all. I need to get pics! What a lovely night!

Thanks Mats!

PS to gedtranter : I just did a 15-20% water change with rainwater! Feeding mushrooms the last three days. Your turn?

[gedtranter]

Cool, well done. I'm soo jealous (in a good way). We've had flooding around here over the last few days, no doubt there will now be a drought when I'm looking for rainwater. Might just try a small amount of RO water that you can buy from vending machines. I'll give the mushrooms a go if yours are liking them.

[L number Banana]

I've been trying to get pics but my camera doesn't seem to want to focus on the glass but on the stuff inside so the eggs are just light green blurs
I won't be dancing in the streets yet because this morning I looked for more and there isn't any, I have a total of five.

I've used the spring water from the machine when I didn't have rainwater and I think that might be what started my corys spawning. The mushrooms are tough to sink so I cut a slice and clipped it to a fishermans sinker. The ottos like it too. It's probably not the highest thing in nutrients but it's a change. Another thing they seem to like is the mixed salad greens called mache.

I put the eggs in the box with the cory eggs. Cross my fingers. I'm still thinking that they may not be fertile or something because the fish still look normal and not at all like gravid females in the pictures. Maybe it's a test run for when she gets bigger?

[L number Banana]

Just measured and the female is exactly 4" - she's grown! I need to take better notes
And I think she is developing a bump! Look at this ultra fuzzy picture. Need a new camera or maybe a new photographer


Looks like a very small sign of being gravid. Maybe another water change tomorrow and I'll get more eggs. The other one still has no sign at all of bristles on the nose, even with a magnifying glass. Will post if anything changes/happens.

[gedtranter]

Certainly a robust look to the belly area. Any change to the eggs in the box yet?

[gedtranter]

Check out this fat female, terrible pic though, she is the one I'm banking on being gravid, she's about 13cm. Also the chainsaw rostrum.

[L number Banana]

Wow, that female certainly looks like she's got some baby plans The colour on the male is beautiful. It will be interesting to see if the babies take some colour from both.

The eggs look identical. I looked at the pictures for the egg development and I don't see any signs of life. Maybe too early or maybe unfertilized. Fingers crossed and hope for the best.

I read on another site that the pair spawned when the lights were dimmed. I've put more floating plants on the top to see if that helps get me a few more eggs.
Will keep you posted if there's any signs of life in the eggs. Or more eggs.

Cheers

[L number Banana]

Nothing came of my 5 green eggs
They looked the exact same for days and finally disappeared maybe as snail food. They looked empty under a magnifying glass. The Mom is still just a little bit wider at the belly but still not as wide as gedtranter's picture above. Haven't seen them frolicking again but hey if it can happen once...
The only change recently is that the maybe-male has become much darker colour while the female is still kind of honey and black.

At least I know what to look for now.
Cheers.

[apistomaster]

Breeding condition males tend to have dusky gray black bellies and females a lighter tan color; just like the above photos.
First spawn or so will usually have many more infertile eggs than later spawns and the brood care also gets better with more experience.
Your fish sound like very young breeders and are just beginning. You can expect better results after they have matured more. perhaps another 3 months and 1 more inch in Total length.

When they are in as good of condition your fish seem to be, a series of 50% water changes performed on several consecutive days using RO or other very soft water cool enough to cause a temporary drop in overall temperature of 5 to 10 *F is often helpful in inducing a spawn.
The behavior you have described is consistent with pre-spawn courtship. The egg color is consistent with Farlowella spawn.

I think all you need to do is be patient and try the above suggestions. You may have several unsuccessful spawns before they finally succeed but I consider that normal. As much as a challenge it may be to spawn them, the challenge of raising their fry eclipses the challenge of breeding the adults. Hopefully the fish will spawn frequently enough to provide you with enough fry to perfect their care.
I would allow the male to care for the eggs and pay attention to the length of the incubation period/temperature. When you learn when to expect the eggs to hatch, then remove the embryos and hatching larvae by using a siphon to release them from their egg shells. Siphon the larvae into a net breeder placed in a bucket then hang the net breeder near a filter return. This will supply them with clean, oxygen rich water. The are easier to raise in shallow water. I would not keep fry less than 3 months old in water deeper than 8 inches.
Once the fry have grown to 2-3/4 to 3 inches long then they are able to handle deeper water and are generally more self sufficient in every way. Those first few months are a delicate period for young Farlowella.

[L number Banana]

Thanks apistomaster,

That's extremely helpful I have a challenge ahead! I'll concentrate on keeping the teenagers healthy and hale for now and try to give them some breeding incentive in a few months.

Thanks again

[Luna]

Cool, well done. I'm soo jealous (in a good way). We've had flooding around here over the last few days, no doubt there will now be a drought when I'm looking for rainwater. Might just try a small amount of RO water that you can buy from vending machines. I'll give the mushrooms a go if yours are liking them.

I truly agree with you! I addition, I just wanna say thank you for the information that you have been shared. I am looking forward for your next discussions.




_________________
Vending Machine

[gedtranter]

Well, I go on holiday to New Zealand for a few days and that's right, my Farlowella spawn whilst I'm away. 8 eggs apparently, don't know if they are fertile, we'll see when I get back later in the week. Cool.

[L number Banana]

Yippee!

Fingers crossed for you.
Mine haven't left any more eggs but maybe yours will start a trend Keep up posted.