I answered the phone at the store the other day to hear "Do you carry South American Red Tail cats?". I wasn't sure I heard her correctly, so I said "Pardon me?" When she repeated herself she was already sounding ticked, so I'm quite sure someone told her that I could get them but probably wouldn't . I asked her if she realized how big they get, to which she replied "Honey I've been keeping fish for 30 years and I have a five HUNDRED gallon aquarium (like that's way larger than she could possibly need). I told her "Yes, they're a fish I can get, but I won't order them usually because noone has the facilities to house them appropriately at over 4 feet." She informed me that they get even larger than that, but not in aquariums. She hung up mad and I stared at the phone wondering why I'd wanted to have my own shop again .
I was pretty upset this last year to see a store that had numerous RTC's for sale. I guess she's going to have to keep wishing she lived closer to that store. I don't even stock big predatory cichlids because I don't have enough tank space to buy them back once they get too aggressive to live with other fish. I only sell those fish by special order, after I'm sure the person ordering the fish understand that. I spend a lot of time feeling like I'd be able to drive a much nicer car if I'd just give people what they want and not worry so much about imposing my ethics on them. Then again, I guess I sleep at night this way. Sorry, just had to vent. The sad part is that I probably would have ordered it for her if she'd thought to ask nicely and reassure me she'd go even bigger with her tank someday. At least she saved me that moral dilemna ;).
Interests: African catfishes and oddballs, Madagascar cichlids; stoner doom and heavy rock; old school choppers and riding them, fantasy novels, travelling and diving in the tropics and all things nature.
She informed me that they get even larger than that, but not in aquariums
it's obvious she's not aware of the "stunted growth phenomena" or -worse- doesn't give a catfishturd about it.
you did the good thing.
any idiot can sell or buy stuff.
it takes a human being with ethics and morale to skip on the money thing and NOT sell or buy stuff because not doing so is the better thing to do
In case the other messages haven't made that clear, you did the right thing. In my calculations I've done when people say "well, I'll just get a bigger tank when it outgrows my current (two-or-three-digit)G tank ", it becomes clear that there are VERY few people who can actually house a fully-grown RTC (even if they get a bit smaller than fully mature natural size). If your neighbour Bill Gates phones up, and he is aware of the difficulty, I'd say he can deal with it. Probably some of the people one or two levels below too - but most of us that do not have 6-7 digit balances on our bank-accounts (and I'm not counting cents, nor the "balance" on the mortgage statement) can not cope with such a fish. It is my opinion they should not be imported.
Thanks Guys. I know I did the right thing, it's just that some days I wonder why I bother . It does help to know I'm not the only person out there with ethics though!
corydoras wrote:And then there are the ones who argue with you because you refuse to sell them fish at the same time as the tank.
They then go to another shop the same day to buy fish and are then back a week later wanting you to sort the mess out for them............
Has happened to me on more than one occaison.
Matt
Ah yes.... but the list of ignorant, arrogant, plain stupid & downright underhand things some shop customers will do is almost endless - shame on them!
Lou: Every young man's fantasy is to have a three-way. Jacob: Yeah not with another fu**!ng guy! Lou: It's still a three-way!
They're coming to get you, Barbara. . . Look. . . There's one of them now!
You definately did the right thing. I recently talked the manager of the aquatics department at the local Pet Zoo out of selling Bala Sharks. "But they're so popular!" "Yes, but they grow to be up to 18" long, and enjoy swimming fast. This means they need at LEAST a 6' long tank, which as you know, no-one sells in Anchorage." "Grummel grummel. . . well if you offer some alternatives. . . "
They have some other questionable fish, but one battle at a time. . .
corydoras wrote:And then there are the ones who argue with you because you refuse to sell them fish at the same time as the tank.
They then go to another shop the same day to buy fish and are then back a week later wanting you to sort the mess out for them............
Has happened to me on more than one occaison.
Matt
For over 10 years ( from my mid teens) I worked in a large LFS, and I know that feeling well! I had many an argument with customers 'who had been keeping fish for twenty years and knew what they were doing' wanting to add 20-30 fish to a new tank. It is hard to try and be civil when they treat you like you are stupid and know nothing. That's one of my bugbears with a large chain over here in the UK - none of the staff know what they are selling or much about the fish at all and i'm often tempted to whisper to the mum with two kids buying their first guppys to go elsewhere and get fish that are in better condition and less likely to die in the first week.
Martin
Do it, Martin. Even better, teach them the signs of stressed fish so they can be educated consumers. That's how I got my "in" at Pet Zoo. . . I pointed out to a customer that all the Neon Tetras were infected with neon tetra disease (Which is why they were so light bellied and lumpy.) The manager happened to overhear me and exclaimed "So THATs why we keep loosing all the fish in that tank!" I explained how to fix the problem, and how to decontaminate the tank, and their last two shipments of neons have survived.
Not stepping in when someone could use your knowledge is a social convention that needs to be broken, IMO.
AlaskanCorydoras wrote:Not stepping in when someone could use your knowledge is a social convention that needs to be broken, IMO.
Yes, I have the antisocial behaviour of "interveening" when I hear something wrong. Sometimes people appreciate this, at other times not. You have to be careful to not make enemies of the staff that you may rely on at later stages.
I've worked in stores that operate in both ways and both are hard. With all large fish (and I talk a bit about this in the catfish FAQ stuff in this months PFK) I just come back to how long they live, not how big they get. If someone has been keeping fish for 30 years, then likely they are at least 45. That means they will have to live to at least 95 (and probably a LOT longer) to look after their new catfish for the term of its natural life.
Irrespective of tank size, they will still be taking charge of an animal they cannot provide for.
That said, it's a business and you've got to make money. When you can sell a punter that came in for guppies a few banjo cats, you can sell anything.
On the final point, we sold SO much fish and kit to folks who made a mess of things with their first set-up for whatever reason - it's the manner in how you do that that counts.
Jools wrote:I've worked in stores that operate in both ways and both are hard. With all large fish (and I talk a bit about this in the catfish FAQ stuff in this months PFK) I just come back to how long they live, not how big they get. If someone has been keeping fish for 30 years, then likely they are at least 45. That means they will have to live to at least 95 (and probably a LOT longer) to look after their new catfish for the term of its natural life.
Now THAT is a good argument for most people. However, some will probably just say "Well, when I can't take care of it, I'll find someone who will".
Jools wrote:I've worked in stores that operate in both ways and both are hard. With all large fish (and I talk a bit about this in the catfish FAQ stuff in this months PFK) I just come back to how long they live, not how big they get. If someone has been keeping fish for 30 years, then likely they are at least 45. That means they will have to live to at least 95 (and probably a LOT longer) to look after their new catfish for the term of its natural life.
Now THAT is a good argument for most people. However, some will probably just say "Well, when I can't take care of it, I'll find someone who will".
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Mats
Yeah, but that's a semantic shift in the right direction. It's making a statement prior to buying the fish that you personally can't look after it. This is different from saying "I'll get a bigger tank when I need it".
Though that is a bit unfair to those of us who DO get a bigger tank when we need it. My zombie pleco will be moving into his new 90 gallon in about a week. I'd never keep a common plec in a 15 longer than absolutely necisary.
AlaskanCorydoras wrote:Though that is a bit unfair to those of us who DO get a bigger tank when we need it. My zombie pl*co will be moving into his new 90 gallon in about a week. I'd never keep a common plec in a 15 longer than absolutely necisary.
Except we are talking about a RTC, which grows to 5 feet, and needs a mid-size swimming pool (that is kept at 25'C/75'F or so), and it lives for about 50 years. Most ordinary people can not cope with the cost and other complications of building a 20 x 10 x 10 foot pond and keeping the fish in that - for one thing, it will have a weight of about 100000 lbs for just the water that goes in there - most fully loaded lorries (trucks) weigh only about half that, and are longer than that.
There are people who keep fish in conditions that are way better than the minimums we might recommend but on the whole they are few & far between. No-one here is tarring everyone with the same brush though.
One of the most rewarding things from my time in the trade is when you get "proper" fishkeepers who listen to what you advise, do it, and then sometime later return to tell you of all their successes with the species spawning etc and thank you for the trouble of explaining eveything to them & imparting a little of your knowledge - priceless
Better than when someone comes in & says their RTC has coughed up it's meal of frozen mackerel & that it's enormous tank (48x15x18") is now cloudy smelling bad & the fish is gasping, floating at the surface. "What have i done wrong?
Lou: Every young man's fantasy is to have a three-way. Jacob: Yeah not with another fu**!ng guy! Lou: It's still a three-way!
MatsP wrote:
Yes, I have the antisocial behaviour of "interveening" when I hear something wrong. Sometimes people appreciate this, at other times not. ...
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Mats
I solved the intervention problem by becoming a newspaper reporter and posing my concerns, not necessarily about fish here in the high desert, as questions to people who can speak to them. I was really surprised at how often they suddenly start thinking about things that never occurred to them before and how things started getting sorted out without my having to write a word.
HIall
heres one on the side of the stupid.many years ago i used to go to a local shop every friday after work.one day while i was talking to the owner a guy came in and asked for "another "half dozen neon tetras as the ones he got last week had vanished .he couldnt understant it as the angels were doing fine.so the owner gave my a wink and proceded to catch the guy his fish.when the guy left the shop the owner said when he sold him the angels he told him not to put them with anything small so it was his fault .
cheers flash
. I asked her if she realized how big they get, to which she replied "Honey I've been keeping fish for 30 years and I have a five HUNDRED gallon aquarium (like that's way larger than she could possibly need). I told her "Yes, they're a fish I can get, but I won't order them usually because noone has the facilities to house them appropriately at over 4 feet." She informed me that they get even larger than that, but not in aquariums. She hung up mad and I stared at the phone wondering why I'd wanted to have my own shop again 
.
- shame on them!
