Brown Recluse: Upside down catfish

[seds]

(again)

Hey, I found some pictures of upside down catfish out in the open? I thought I would try and get mine to do this, and it has been unsucessful as of yet. I bought 2 more, (all they had in stock for months) so now I have 4. I plan to keep buying more until I run out of money or until they start shoaling in open water.
Here is evidence that it is possible.

http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Catfish,%20Upside-Down.htm
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=1148
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=4896



I heard having a planted tank doesn't help. Apparently a heavily planted tank decreases your chance of catching a rare glimpse of this creature. . . Is there a way to encourage them to be out in the open moar? I put in a huge driftwood stick (it is indeed a stick) and spread a bunch of java moss across with rubber bands. The moss died back significantly... but alas it is still green after almost 2 weeks. They ignore it and hide inside a ceramic log with fabric plants glued on. I speculate there may be 3 of them hiding in the same "log" and the other one has his very own ceramic log. I tried plastic ice cream pail lids for ugly water lilies.

...They thought they were ugly too.

The LFS doesn't have any floating plants. They might be spooked into hiding by the presence of huger fish than them; I still have the tinfoil barbs from when I asked nooby questions. They are about 8 inches. The aqualandpetsplus source says "they have enough sense to hide when there are bullies..." so this might be the issue?


Possible issues:
-Hiding places are too good?
-Not enough plants?
-No floating plants?
-spooked by bigger fish?
-too few (still)

How many does it take before they start chilling in open water comfortably? I still do get really excited catching a glimpse of them even if they are just poking their head out of their hidey hole.

PS: whoever owns like 30 of them (in the cat-e-log it shows them) show me more pictures please.

thanks in advance. If this kind of thing is asked often give me a link. I searched my own posts and I didn't make any such thread about this issue.

[andywoolloo]

I do not have upside downs I have eupterus's, 5 in a 75 gal.

What size tank is your catfish in and what all other inhabitants besides the tinfoil barbs?

Mine were outgoing as babies then turned shy then become outgoing again.

I have black pvc huge pipes, driftwood chunks all over, slate, amazon swords, jave ferns, I had floating plants but the current was a bit strong for them, sand substrate, river rocks around the plants and scattered throughout. I learned here that the more hiding places the more they come out and it is def good advice.

Mine are even out in the day now. Just all the time kicking it. They each have their fav spot tho. And they have a common pl*co as a tank mate now too. he is about 8 inches and the eupterus are about 6-8 inches as well.

Mine have a swimming area in the middle. I want to upgrade to a bigger tank for them soon. So they can have more free space, they need so much furniture that it cuts down on open ground space.

I do not know if this will help you or not. Since they are diff synos.

[Birger]

I do not have thirty but I have a dozen now...that other picture could be within a store somewhere as well.

The best way to observe these is to create lots of overhangs with stones...then you will see them squabbling under these throughout the day,usually there will be one fish in each overhang. They would be more active at night and with the use of the blue moon lights a person would be able to observe them out and about more. I currently do not have one of these lights but I do know they work. Plants with large leaves such as Anubias barteri are also sometimes used to sit under.

They will learn to come out at feeding time if they do not feel threatened, mine will start to come out before there is even food in the water.
As you say a larger group will make them braver as once one is out the others tend to follow.The only time you will see them swim continuously out in the open(without food to tempt them) is when they are first introduced to a tank, they will wander around following each other rather confused until they get to know the available hiding places.

I have mine in a tank combined with a shoal of

Pareutropius buffei

and find this to be a good mix.

Birger

[seds]

They are in a 70 galloner. A bit small for tinfoils but I bought them before I knew much and now I am attatched to them... and budget doesn't quite permit a larger tank (and for the time being neither do the parents) There are 4 tinfoils and 4 UDC. That is all I have. My

Pareutropius buffei

are now deceased.

Thanks for the advise, my only overhanging stone is partly burried and overtop of a habitrail hamster tunnel. I have other hidey holes available in my 29 but I will move them and see.
GOT TO GO

[Richard B]

Tinfoils are not a good mix & this will definately affect their behaviour!

The best set-up i've seen for these was a 30" long species tank, it had a sand substrate with leaf litter (beech leaves), vallis at the back & sides only, a foot long thin spindly, root with many fine branches on the bottom which extended into the midwater, with some java fern on. At the surface were very many thin pieces of traditional bogwood & beech & oak branches. Each of these had a brass screw in with the head of the screw siliconed into an aquarium sucker, so the branch coud be anchored to the glass at the surface. There was also common duckweed floating in the gaps at one end but surface flow from the filter return at one end. There were about 20 nigriventris & a couple of kuhli loach. The syno's spent most of their time shoaling in the open water as they felt secure - walk past the tank & they would shoot up under the surface branches & remain there until they felt the danger had passed, unless food was added & then they would pig out in open view.
It was really one of those occasions when the keeper had thought long & hard about the best way to keep the fish

[Chrysichthys]

I don't know how commonly available it is, but my LFS sells pieces of floating bark, which works really well for

Brachysynodontis batensoda

and

Hemisynodontis membranaceus

. They feel right at home shoaling inverted underneath it.

[seds]

Tinfoils are not a good mix & this will definately affect their behaviour!

The best set-up i've seen for these was a 30" long species tank, it had a sand substrate with leaf litter (beech leaves), vallis at the back & sides only, a foot long thin spindly, root with many fine branches on the bottom which extended into the midwater, with some java fern on. At the surface were very many thin pieces of traditional bogwood & beech & oak branches. Each of these had a brass screw in with the head of the screw siliconed into an aquarium sucker, so the branch coud be anchored to the glass at the surface. There was also common duckweed floating in the gaps at one end but surface flow from the filter return at one end. There were about 20 nigriventris & a couple of kuhli loach. The syno's spent most of their time shoaling in the open water as they felt secure - walk past the tank & they would shoot up under the surface branches & remain there until they felt the danger had passed, unless food was added & then they would pig out in open view.
It was really one of those occasions when the keeper had thought long & hard about the best way to keep the fish

How interesting. I was informed today that there is a 40 gallon aquarium available for free at my school in the science lab. I checked it out and I can't tell what it comes with, but it has a bit of brown, coarse gravel and I think it has a light. There was a person who wanted it but doesn't have room anymore. I very well may get it. I might move the moors and white clouds I have in my 29 to it If I feel like it. The main problem is it looks very ugly and leaked. They fixed it though. At least it is free and I have silicon sealant of my own (just to be on the safe side.

If I am allowed to bring it home heck yes I will make a planted species tank (OR with some tetras too.) I will use an underwater filter and get lots of duckweed and bog-wood. You gotta decide from the start if you want it planted or not. I am not making this up to make myself seem smarter or something either.

OH YAY I was just informed I am not allowed to get it.

[andywoolloo]

I would love to see a photo of that tank you described Richard, it sounds awesome.

[seds]

Same here...

Still. I am kind of disappointed about the fact that I can't get the free tank. I'll see if begging on my hands and knees works... nah

[seds]

Hey I moved some decorations around and added flat rocks and a plastic plant from my other tank. I saw two (2) catfish out and about swimming along the back wall, under broad leafed plants or on the side of the fake wooden decoration.

It was a magical moment to say the least.

[Richard B]

Good one! the 1st of many......?

[Birger]

A couple pictures of mine enjoying their rock overhangs

[Birger]

A couple within the plants...but I am sure they would prefer their own stone overhang if given the chance

And an older picture of a few out and about

[seds]

Cool beans, I like the last one the best though. Did you take those with or without flash?

2 of my catfish have chosen a new place to hide; one on the leaf and one on the sides of a log. I am pretty sure that when a tinfoil barb knocked over a log it upset the balance and new order had to be established.

[Birger]

I used a point and shoot digital with the inboard flash on macro setting

The last picture is how they act on the first day of being in a tank, they wander around in small groups disorientated until they figure out all the cover.
I have never tried just having cover higher up like Richard mentioned in a previous post. I am thinking of trying this to see how they react to surface cover only.
Will keep you posted as I could rearrange this tank today.

Birger

[betta blue]

Hi Brown Recluse! I'm just a novice but this is my short experience with upside down catfish.
I've had 4 of them now for 10 months in a 10gal tank and a big amazon sword plant that I've had for over 2 years that they hang under the leaves. I count them regularly as they are all in view. When I'm missing one, I move the leaves and they all swim to new leaves so I can verify all four. Periodically, I see them swim to a new leaf but never as a group. Three sometimes congregate under one leaf. Sometimes two go out at the same time to find a new leaf to hang on. One seems more adventurous that I have seen swimming for short intervals. It's probably not the best home for them as it is a small aquarium. All look healthy though I've never seen them eat anything I put in daily. I think they are eating the leaves as the leaves get rasped and thin and then they move to another leaf. If someone could tell me more about their eating habits, I'd appreciate it. I did have a betta fish in the same tank with them til recently. I've had the betta for 2 1/2 years. The betta is getting old and spends most of his time on top of leaves. I believe the upside down catfish were nipping at his fins at night. I've moved the betta and it's doing much better now and his fins are recovering.

Though initially I was disappointed not to see them swimming all the time, now I enjoy just seeing them and when they do swim, it's exciting. I think they are a unique and interesting catfish and am glad they are part of my "fisherie". They appear to be an easy catfish to take care of. As far as the amazon sword plant goes, it's very established and hopefully it can survive them? It still has some full healthy leaves and new growth coming. Without the plant, I would definately do what Birger recommended with stone overhangs so you can still see them.

[Richard B]

Hi Brown Recluse! I'm just a novice but this is my short experience with upside down catfish.
I've had 4 of them now for 10 months in a 10gal tank and a big amazon sword plant that I've had for over 2 years that they hang under the leaves. I count them regularly as they are all in view. When I'm missing one, I move the leaves and they all swim to new leaves so I can verify all four. Periodically, I see them swim to a new leaf but never as a group. Three sometimes congregate under one leaf. Sometimes two go out at the same time to find a new leaf to hang on. One seems more adventurous that I have seen swimming for short intervals. It's probably not the best home for them as it is a small aquarium. All look healthy though I've never seen them eat anything I put in daily. I think they are eating the leaves as the leaves get rasped and thin and then they move to another leaf. If someone could tell me more about their eating habits, I'd appreciate it. I did have a betta fish in the same tank with them til recently. I've had the betta for 2 1/2 years. The betta is getting old and spends most of his time on top of leaves. I believe the upside down catfish were nipping at his fins at night. I've moved the betta and it's doing much better now and his fins are recovering.

Though initially I was disappointed not to see them swimming all the time, now I enjoy just seeing them and when they do swim, it's exciting. I think they are a unique and interesting catfish and am glad they are part of my "fisherie". They appear to be an easy catfish to take care of. As far as the amazon sword plant goes, it's very established and hopefully it can survive them? It still has some full healthy leaves and new growth coming. Without the plant, I would definately do what Birger recommended with stone overhangs so you can still see them.

They shouldn't eat much green stuff at all - standard prepared flake, tablets & frozen bloodworm etc are all foods of choice for upside downs - the fact they rasp at the plant surprises me a little. If you never see them eat i'd try food in the tank after lights out, with room lights out too. Give it a minute or so then try a red bulb torch or torch shone through red cellophane to see what's happening.

[betta blue]

Thank you Richard. I feed them flaked food, freeze dried bloodworms, frozen bloodworms after I do water changes, a broken wardley's algae tablet...change what I give them regularly. I don't see anything left in the morning but also do regular water changes. I do have a number of small snails in that tank. Do you think the snails are eating my plant? Do you think the snails were eating the fins of my Betta? I sometimes think that the food I am putting in are being eaten by the snails too. I already had clown loaches in that tank to clean up the snails...the clowns were small and obviously didn't get rid of all of them when I transfered them to the 90 gal. The clowns are doing fine. The upside down catfish seem healthy and after submitting here, I watched them move around again in the 10 gal. Do they go to the substrate to eat at night? I've never seen them close to the substrate since having them.

Do you know anything about glass catfish? I have two in my other 10 gal. with my "old" betta that I transfered from the upside down catfish aquarium. I appreciate that my Betta is getting older and doesn't like swimming unless there's food...still has a good appetite and is looking fine visually but spends most of the day on leaves of a wisteria plant. I've accepted that its just a matter of time for him but hopefully it will be longer...read they can live up to 5 years in an aquarium...only half way there. I have never seen my glass catfish go to the bottom of the tank to eat. They eat a bit during the day before the betta eats it all. I find its better to feed them just after I turn off the lights. Is that normal? I'm thinking I would like to buy 2 more for that tank to try to do a bit of a school. I never see them stop swimming and it exhausts me to just watch them. Do glass catfish ever sleep? Would it be too much of a strain on water parameters to buy them now? There are also some snails in that aquarium. Too many questions...just a novice trying to learn stuff. 56 years old and just found out the joys of having fish as friends!

[Richard B]

Glass cats live & feed in midwater & seldom eat from the substrate - they do like to be in sizeable shoals though so getting more is a good idea.

The diet & maintenance regime for the USD cats sounds ideal. Snails will eat their food & maybe responsible for the plant damage but its hard to say for sure. As for snails eating Betta fins, not likely, but USDs are not fin nippers either The cats should venture all over the tank so they should be seen around the substrate once in a while although they prefer to be under aquatic leaves, under floating plants, under submerged branches & overhangs etc

[betta blue]

Thank you Richard. Will be getting more glass catfish shortly! Don't think the UDC intentionally ate the Betta's fins but in the mornings I'd find three of them directrly under the leaf the Betta was lying on with his fins draped over the side of the leaf. And within a week of watching this, notice the fins on the Betta looking worse daily. Transfered him and he's looking okay again but still just laying on top of a plant for most of the day. Nice to know that the snails are good for something!