breeding L182 brstlenose tips please blackwater tips

[seanie112]

why are the eggs dieing in the last two times they have breed they have died either before they have hatch but the last time the died 48hrs after they was layed can we do something to have the eggs live longer or not

everythng is normal ie ph i will add wot i am running in the tank later thx for looking

[Barbie]

You'll need to add the water parameters before anyone can really help answer your question, to be honest. The odds are good that your water isn't soft enough, as these are black water ancistrus. Without knowing exactly how you're keeping them and what isn't working, it would be a waste of time to guesstimate what the issue could be, no? There's a sticky at the top of the forum with a list of the information that would be the most use to help us help you.

Barbie

[seanie112]

i have now got a fry tank set up this is wot i am running in tank and that

ph is 7.5 to 8.0 dark green
nitrite no2 0.1 clear or light pink
nitrate no3 5 clear or light pink
ammonia nh3 nh4 0.0 clear
test kit used is nutrafin test kit

have bubbles along the bk of the tank i have a eheim pro 3 2080
300 watts heater
tank is 77x17x18 around 300 ltrs
temp today is 74 f or 23deg after water change before that it was 78f
fish is 12x L182 bristlenose
L201 x1
gubbies x7
mollys x3 ?
L191 royal plec x3
clown pleco x5
swordtails x3
11 x caves
loads of bogwood
gravel

[MatsP]

The high pH indicates that you are on the hard water side of the southwest part of the country. As barbie says, these are black-water species, so they live in water that is very low pH (around 4 - but they will be fine in a tank with pH 6-7) and nearly no mineral content at all (no hardness or buffer capacity).

It is of course possible that the eggs go bad for some other reason, but I'd say some softer water is the right solution.

Unfortunately, it's not easy to fix that - RO water is the only "simple" solution.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

ok thx for that wil see wot i an do thx

[seanie112]

is that the only way to get a blackwater set up using reverse osmosis RO water unit
we not got much money to buy one of these (uk) have looked on ebay uk prices around 40pounds upwards for second hand one

[seanie112]

plusi have moved the bristlenose now to there own tank my corner tank well not on there own they are corys x5 and clown loaches x6 thats it 252ltr corner tank

[MatsP]

is that the only way to get a blackwater set up using reverse osmosis RO water unit
we not got much money to buy one of these (uk) have looked on ebay uk prices around 40pounds upwards for second hand one

It's not the ONLY solution... You could move to somewhere where there is soft tap-water, or you could use distilled or de-ionized water (however the latter usually involves a first step of RO to remove the "rough stuff", then DI to remove the ions that passed through the RO unit). And of course, you can buy RO water from your local fish-shop, but after a few buckets wroth of water, you have paid for the RO unit.

Note that when looking for RO units, you should take care to check the cost of replacement cartridges too. My RO unit cost about £70, and a fulll set of replacement cartridges set me back about £60. I'm quite sure that next time I'm up for renewing the cartridges, I'm going for a new complete unit from ROMAN.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

looks like i'll be selling them or trying to get my wife to let me spend the money for reverse osmosis RO water unit thx for your reply matt

[MatsP]

Well, if breeding is your goal, then I guess those are your options.

--
Mats

[Barbie]

You could also collect rain water, to soften their conditions. Just be sure to let the rain flow from the gutters for 10 or 15 minutes before you start saving it. If you're in a polluted or highly populated area this can be a bad idea, but it's how I originally got my L260 going. Picture 6 totes full of snow in my office, melting, so I could pour them together and drag some more full totes in again. My husband must REALLY love me, hehe.

Barbie

[seanie112]

or cld i use this
TETRA BLACKWATER EXTRACT...100ml

REPLICATES NATURAL BLACKWATER CONDITIONS

Creates clear blackwater conditions in aquariums.

Promotes spawning activity and general health.

Improves disease resistance

or not cheap on ebay !!!!!!

[Barbie]

Not IMO, no. If your tap water is hard to begin with, you're just going to be adding more "stuff" to the water. You need to remove some before the blackwater extract can acidify and do you much good. There is no easy solution in a bottle or all the people who are responding to the thread would have suggested it already ;).

Barbie

[seanie112]

ok thx wil not bother with that then thanks

[seanie112]

the readings today in my tank


ph is 7.5 to 8.0 dark green
nitrite no2 0.1 clear or light pink
nitrate no3 5 clear or light pink
ammonia nh3 nh4 0.0 clear
test kit used is nutrafin test kit

two lots of air bubbles
external filter 1500ltr hour
300 watts heater
tank is corner tank 252ltrs

[MatsP]

For general fishkeeping, those numbers are perfectly fine. For breeding a blackwater species, it is not so great, as they need lower pH - as we have discussed earlier. And the solution remains.

However, there's no harm in just keeping the fish in those conditions as long as the fish are looking "happy and healthy". They could even spawn in that water, if they are well kept enough - although I think that is somewhat unlikely.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

they have breed but the eggs keeps dying or the live for 4wks and then die
trying to get my wife to buy me a ro water thing for xmas fish look fine they are well looked after as i have keeped fish now for 15 odd years but first time in keeping L182

[seanie112]

hi there done a gh and kh general and carbonate hardness test test kit was api
from the tap first then from fish tank
the tank has blackwater extract in was done on thursday of last wk
it says add one drop then shaken till it goes color bright yellow for kh and gh same but when it turns grean in color only reading wot it says in instructions when its that color look at kh and gh

conversion chart
of drops dkh ppm kh/gh
tap water is
kh 2 drops =35.8 ppm
gh 5 drops = 89.5 ppm


fish tank is

kh 5drops = 89.5 ppm
gh 9 drops = 161.1 ppm

ph to day is 7.0 to 7.5 in tank
tap water ph is same 7.0 to 7.5
wot does this mean as i have no idea !!!!!!

[MatsP]

Probably that you have something in the tank that raises the KH and GH (they usually rise togehter anyways).

Edit: having another look at your gravel, it does look quite pale (aside from the really colourfull stuff), which makes me think that it may be limestone-based, which will slowly dissolve into the water. On a further note here, I see that you have Corys (Albino

Corydoras aeneus

by the look of things) - they would love it if you changed your rather course gravel with some sand. If you get playpit sand (DIY/Garden centre or even supermarket will have that - although it is out of season at the moment, so it may take a bit of searching) or sand from your LFS, it will most likely resolve the "rising KH and GH". You can experiment by taking a small amount of gravel out and keeping it in a bucket of tap-water for a few days, and see if it changes. If so, it's the gravel that is the problem. I'm not a betting man, but I'd put 5p that it is...


On a side-note/rant about the science of measurig with drops and so on:
I'm a bit surprised about the numbers they give, as 2 drops is hardly even close to three digits precision - with luck/skill, your drops are within 10% of each other, which means that two drops are within 5 percent of another 2 drops. The more drops you use, the closer you are going to get to the ideal measure (assuming you always do things the same way). Yet, they specify 38.5 ppm (I presume it's parts per million or mg/l that you get). My guess is that it's the usual "translating units from one to another" problem. You get that on boxes of food in England, where it says "approx 1lb. 453.6 g" - well, it's either approximately a pound, or exactly 453.6 grams (plus minus half a tenth of a gram, which requires an good set of scales to measure - certainly not what you'd get for £10 at your average household shop, and although I expect that you COULD get precise industrial scales, I doubt that the tea, coffee, flour or such places actually want to spend the time of using such a precise scale to portion out whatever they are selling). It's just a case of someone is told that "you need to put the weight in grams on the box", so they look up a pound in some book or so, which says that a pound is 453.6 grams. But the precision of pounds is one digit. Mathematically, we can be within 0.5 lb either side of that. So it would be equally correct - at least in maths - to say that the gram weight is 0.4 kg, or 227-680g. In this case, I expect the original scale was grains or GH units, and two drops is (say) 2 GH units. And of course, 1.0000 GH units is 17.900 ppm, so two of those is 35.800 ppm - the fact that we can't actually measure that precisely with the pipette that drips the drops in is a completely different matter.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

the gravel is
dorset pea gravel from pets at home

[MatsP]

the gravel is
dorset pea gravel

And as we all know (or at least, I know), Dorset is part of the "chalk belt" in England, so it would have some calciferous material in it.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

that waas the old ie 77x17x18 we have moved the L182 to my corner tank 252ltr

heres a pic

[MatsP]

Right, that is still some pretty chalky looking gravel. Again, you can test it by sticking a few pieces of the gravel (make sure you get "all" the different types of stone in there) in a container. Cover with a fair bit of water, and test the hardness immediately and then after a few days. I bet it goes up.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

done gravel test its ok




plus i have got my 5 Stage Reverse Osmosis RO Water Filter + Booster Pump + TDS built in

just turned up only thing is now finding someone who knows how to fit it lol

















go on say it why did i buy it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MatsP]

Does it come with a Vampier Clamp? If so, there's not that much to it. Just fit the clamp around your cold-water supply pipe (in the kitchen for example), mount the RO unit somewhere, and let it run.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the drinking tap and the storage container are completely meaningless for aquarium use - you need a decent size tub of some sort - I use "loft tanks" in my fish-room, but almost any water container will do. It's funny that they sell these for drinking purposes, as I personally wouldn't recommend drinking RO or DI water - some people seem to recommend it, but I don't think it's a particularly good idea, as it's too low in minerals for human consumption.

--
Mats

[seanie112]

yes it comes with every thing to set up

last time i done something this i had to call out a plumber to fix my pipes my m8 going to do it on monday

have u ever try ro water teste nice mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

pure water


may get couple discus to go in the tank with them dont know yet !!!!!!!

[seanie112]

wot other fish can i put in with them was going to have discus but not going to now so wld like to kno wot other fish i cld have with my L182 bristlenose black water fish
any help with wot fish be great thx

will be using the ro water unit on tuesday so will be put in tank then
_________________
i love my fish more then my wife and kids oh dame the wife knows now lol

[apistomaster]

I just read through this whole tread and it seems like you are serious about your L182 breeding project and buying an RO water unit is a major step in the right direction but as Mat pointed out, the supplied 5 gal storage vessel is inadequate for aquarium use. Y ou need at least a new 30 plus gal plastic garbage can. Better yet, a certified food safe 55 gal barrel or 2.
BTW, RO water makes for great tasting espresso.

If you have 12 L182's I would recommend dividing them into 2 separate breeding groups. I think your newly released fry will do better with fewer adults present. Definitely use either play sand or pool filter sand. I think based on your test results that it is clear that you do have some calcareous minerals present in your gravel. The sand layer should not be too thick. 1/4 inch would be fine but I wouldn't recommend a layer deeper than 1 inch. The reason is that whenever fine sand is placed in a layer much over 1 inch thick the water circulation through becomes so poor that the dissolved oxygen levels become low. When that happens anaerobic bacteria begin to predominate and as they consume the food(fish waste etc.) the by product is hydrogen sulfide which is extremely toxic. Signs that this is happening are blackened areas of sand and/or the strong smell of sulfur.

When designing the breeding tank layout, I recommend that you include several pieces of aquarium safe wood like the popular Malaysian wood sold in the fish shops. When first added to your tank the wood may leach out tannins that tint your water. This is alright. Remember these are black water plecos and it is these very types of substances that give black water it's name. By using about 90% RO water mix with 10% tap water you will have soft enough water and just enough buffering capacity to prevent drastic drops of the pH. While their native waters often have a pH as low as 4.0 I do not advise that you try to keep your fish at this low of a pH. It is too easy for things to go wrong. A pH of 6.0 is low enough for your fishes eggs to develop normally and have good fry survival.
For the benefit of providing numerous hiding places for your fry, make a few stacks of thin pieces of slate with ~1/4 inch spacing pieces between each slate. Use peat filtration to lower your pH rather than any of the chemicals sold for this purpose. Chemicals may be difficult for you to use without causing severe and abrupt changes of the pH. The pre-packaged Keta-Peat material is a safe and gentle way to lower the water pH and provide the black water effect. The black water additives mainly effect color but not pH. Their use is entirely optional.
As far as other fish to keep with them i would not keep anything if it were me but if you must, then choose something like Green Neon tetras. Small fish like these will not present a threat to your fry. Even Dwarf Cichlids can kill new pleco fry. I have even used albino Ancistrus cf cirrhosus fry as a snack for my Discus. I once fed 200 of them to 6 adult discus in just one 24 hour period and they ate eveyrone of of them.
Good luck and have fun breeding your Ancistrus.

[seanie112]

ok m8 they was in two groups before i put them in one tank was thinking abt putting them bk the way they was the smaller trio i had breed two times the other ones never breed with the last owners or with me as yet was thinking abt splitting them again ill just have to move the common bristlenoses i have in the divided tank and put the L182 in there will sort that out sometime next wk thx again 3xm 9f i have so will have to sort them out cld make three trio's !!!!!

so much to sort out still got to find fish to go in my tanks with the plecs i have in the 77x17x8 and in the corner tank going over to mbuna in one of the tanks as i have got the rock and sand now

but will like to get some big fish in my big tank will have to see wot happens

[seanie112]

update

ro water unit is up and running takes abt 4hours & 30 mins to do a 25ltrs of pure water start the finished so will tank me long time to do my tanks water changes but i onlt got 3 water buckets that hold 25ltrs in each so going to buy couple 20ltrs ones of ebay