Pseudacanthicus sp "black" - a breeding tale

[ElTofi]

Hi everybody,

As you may know, I've been quiet lucky with my pair of Pseuda these last weeks... I'm not sure it's allowed in this form, but I'd wanted to submit you a kind of "breeding tale", day to day, on this forum section... It's a translation from my text on the French forum where the original topic lays... If anyone in the moderation's team should find it's not appropriate, please, erase it and contact me...

so, if you're in... let's go

Once upon a time...



Here is a picture of the male, right after the second spawn. This one has been burried under sand by a Gibby and nothing good resulted. I still don't know exactly who they are (L320 ? L186 ? a very dark kind of L65 ?), but what's sure is that they have succeeded at the 5th time.

On the very first spawn, I only could have 32 larvae, as I didn't see the spawn till I moved the roots and rocks in the big tank (1600 liters). It was very late after the hatch and there were not so many survivors. Here under, you can see their new 300 liters house.



A lot of stones, laid on a sand couch. A lot of roots above it all, a few caves. Heavy filtration (Eheim Pro II 2028) plus 2 x TUNZE Nanostream (2500 + 4500 l/h)

Feeding :
Nothing realy special, but in big quantities and 4 times a day : Tetra diskus + deep frozen shrimp + Sera Viformo

On the picture, you can see the caudal fin of the male, deep inside the big cave on the right. The female is on the other side of the tank, in the second big tube.

[ElTofi]

I moved them in this smaller tank cause it's much easier to adjust the parameters in this tank. Remember the one before was 1600 liters. It all begins with heavy feeding during 3 weeks, and then, massive RO and rain water changes :

August, 18th : 120 liters RO water directly from the jerrican to the tank

August, 19th : 120 liters RO water, idem

August, 20th : 200 liters cool rain water (14°C). This means 2/3 of water change on total volume. The temperature falled from 28°C to 21.

August, 21st : 200 litres cool rain water, exactly the same as the day before. It rained all day long, with lightning and storm... I'm not sure it has helped simulating a rainy season, but anyway, it helped in my mind

Behaviour between August 18th - 21st :

The male is very active. He's looking for the female in the whole tank. There are only 2 possible "spawning sites" cause I don't have much more big caves... The male goes from one to the other during 3 days... He stucks the female inside from time to time, but it never lasts more than 1-2 hours...

August, 22nd , early in the morning :
That's it. The female is stucked inside a cave. It will last 2 days long. I only can see her caudal fin. The male pushes her at the end of the tube, and he's not on the flat end of the tube. Sometimes, he's completely head over heels. Strange, he's very calm, not a single move... The female tries to escape, but believe me, she won't.

I don't have any picture, cause it's the 5th spawn and I caused too much troubles in the 3 last... without any result... I'm quiet sure I disturbed them too much... so this time, let us them alone...

[ElTofi]

August, 24th early in the morning : that's it !

Yesterday, I had doubts... there was much excitment inside this cave... So this morning, very full of hope, I dare a very tiny little ray of light in the tube... That's it I discover what seems to be a huge spawn... First time in this tank... I hope it will be good...

The eggs are around 5mm, orange. I can't see the whole clutch, but the male can't cover it all... it really seems to be a big one...it is laid on the bottom of the tube, and it seems quiet "flat" if I can say... By Hypancistrus, the clutch usually forms a "ball of eggs"... Here, it's more like a "carpet of eggs". I'm very excited, but I don't dare a too long look at it... light could (again) disturb him...

The female is back on the left end of the tank... It's crazy how much she got thin in one night...

August, 26th in the evening :

the male began to fan his clutch during the day, but only with pectoral fins... the other half of his body don't move at all... I know well the breeding of Hypancistrus, and it's a bit desapointing, cause the "fanning" is not the same... I hardly can see the eggs, cause Mr. Dad seems to be a very good father... He covers the whole with his body, moving sometimes to right or left... It seems that most of the care is made with his big mouth, not with his body... Considering the king sized odontodes, I think it's better, no ?

It's very difficult for me not to "put my hands in the tank"... There are so many things that I'd like to do, to know, to watch... but no... I won't do the same mistakes again... finally, it seems I can learn

[ElTofi]

August, 30th, early in the morning :

Spawning + 6 days... a short look with a light lets me know that the eggs are going well... Inside, you can see the eyes, the body form becoming more and more defined. It's been 10 days (at 28 °C) from the last water changes... I didn't dare to go on with water changes from the female laid her eggs... It shouldn't be too long, now...

August, 31st, (very) early in the morning :



anormal moves in the tube... the male has not been so clearly visible from at least one week... a short look inside : Oh my... it moves so much at first, I only see that the spawn has been splitted... So I take my camera, to try to have pictures... And then... I disturbe the male, who let 6 eggs flow away in the "wide open" of the tank... OOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPSSSSSSSS

I take my tools to catch the 6 eggs before they go to far... the nurseries are ready from 4-5 days... so what else is to do ? I drop the 6 eggs in one of them... a quick check for the cleaning, I throw 3 snails inside and that's it...

I'm so focused on the 6 eggs, that I miss seeing the 3 larvae which are trying to escape from the cave in the main tank.... I'm so stupid... disturbing Mr. Dad of course, he's leaving his babies in the wild... you stupid idiot what to do ? I catch my tools again, and let's go fishing the new babies... directly in the nursery... together with the 6 eggs... 6 eggs, which 6 eggs They have hatched...

It didn't take me long to realize that Mr. Dad is on "red alert mode"... Everyone is leaving !!! What do I have to do ? Let them spread in the tank or try to catch them all, even if the last are not "ready" to hatch... Oh my... I'm really stupid... I had to let them alone one more day... And all that because I wanted to have pictures... I'm sooooo mad at me....

I have to take a decision... which is... take them all... so I take a drum to drop the whole inside it... and guess what I found ?

[ElTofi]

I can tell you Mr. Dad is not very happy... I take him away from his children... He could hurt them with his giga odontodes...



Believe me : he's mad

So now, about the babies... I just have to install them in the nurseries... and as you can see here under, 2 nurseries are not unusefull... I tried to count them all... will you try ?




On both nurseries, I counted more than 200 babies... Plus a few who are left in the tank... It's too difficult to remove it all just to try to catch 20 babies inside it... I guess I could only hurt them... So let it be...

[ElTofi]

September, 2nd (evening : 2 days after hatch)


September, 4th (evening : 4 days after hatch)




From more than 200, I lost around 15 larvae between Sunday and Tuesday... Root cause : bacteria and very very young larvae... I wasn't efficient enough with the "house keeping"... As I'm not home during the day (can you believe it ? we don't have any "birth" day off when it's about fishes ), I wasn't able to clean the nursery 3-4 times a day...

On Wednesday and Thursday, they began to explore the 3rd dimension... and they got stucked in the sides openings of nurseries... it's about 15 more dead... So I guess, on both nurseries, the countdown must be around 170 juveniles from 5 days...

the show will go on as soon as possible... see you...

[DutchFry]

this is just amazing!

i really enjoyed the show, nicely written too!

I think you are very lucky with these fish, I guess they are rare in the hobby and you sure make the most of it!

can't wait to read the sequel, please keep us updated!!!

and of course, the best of luck in raising these cute little fry!

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

Looks good!

Keep sand on the bottom so the fry don't get infected with bacterias! Pseudacanthicus and Leporacanthicus species are very sensetive juring this period!

How big is the breeding aquarium and how big are the parents?



Great to see something else than hypancistrus breedings!!!

[Haavard Stoere]

Wow:) Very exiting reading:)

I bet you will breed your L25s in the same manner one day

Keep posting

[ElTofi]

.../...
How big is the breeding aquarium and how big are the parents?
.../...

When I caught the male, I could see he's "only" 23 cm... That's what make me thing of a "small" specie as L65... But the pattern doesn't match exactly... Actually, I haven't taken the female from the tank. But in May, she was 15 cm... I don't think she has grown a lot from that time...

For the breeding tank, it's only a 150x40x50 cm and I don't fill it full... I guess around 250 liters netto...

Actually, the babies are in 2 floating nurseries as you can see on the second picture of the post... In a near future (around their 5-6th week of age), they will be transfered in the 54 liters, which now contains their big brothers and sisters... The "older" will leave in early October for France... So there will be place for the new... And I will probably use the second 37 liters nursery too... this one is still used for L66 actually, but those will leave in January during the club annual meeting.

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

So you don't have big mortality of the fry when you rais them without sand on the bottom?
From my experience the yolksak often gets infected by bacterias that way, so I use sand...
Do you use UV- filtration in you're aquarium?

You're probaply the first ine breeding this species i think!

[Loracidlover]

Brilliant posting Tofi, well done, truly inspiring! Good luck with the rest of the babies, I know this is the most nerve wracking period!

Conrad

[ElTofi]

Hi!

So you don't have big mortality of the fry when you rais them without sand on the bottom?
From my experience the yolksak often gets infected by bacterias that way, so I use sand...
Do you use UV- filtration in you're aquarium?

You're probaply the first ine breeding this species i think!

In fact, I always keep the fry in a floating nursery during the 4-6 first weeks... bare bottom, light flow of current inside the nursery to keep the bottom clean and to give a max of O2. And just to be sure that the transition between "yolksac" and "self feeding" goes well...

afterwards, I do indeed place the juveniles in a bigger tank (54 l) with same conditions and parameters as the adults (heavy filtration, sand, rocks, driftwood, current). No UV or "technical" installation by me... my electricity bill is already much too high

[ElTofi]

This two pictures to show you the little guys at hatch + 6 days





and to compare with the bigger, which are 5.5 months old now :



to have an idea of the size, the bizarre spot on the top right is the end of my index finger

I wonder why there are so many differences among the growth of them

[ElTofi]

3 picts of the fry, 9 days after the hatching







some differences of growing can be noticed... I still wonder why... they hatched all in the same 10 hours (as far as I know)... the part of them I lost was due 1. to bacterias 2. to stucking accident in the nursery

Another crazy think I noticed today, more than 2 weeks after the spawn, is that the female is wounded on the belly, more or less at the pectoral fins level. She has a bad marking, exactly matching the size of the male's mouth... it's on the good way to be healed, but still well marked...

I understand better the big moves the male had during the time they were together in the cave. And I understand much better why the female tried all she could to escape... When said that Pseudacanthicus are wild and savage males... not what we could call a gentleman

Sorry, I wasn't able to get a decent picture of it, as she is still hiding in the back part of the tank... going out for feeding, but not much more yet...

[Bas Pels]

Can't blame her, so i'll blame him

Nice pics, I like, especially, the way they group together - as if they discussed it

[Janne]

It looks like this species

Pseudacanthicus sp(l097)

, the amount of white spots is very individual and with age they loose most of the white spots or blotches looking just like your male. Few adults keep their white markings but looks quite faded, you will see the likeness among the youngsters with L97 the more they grow.

Janne

[ElTofi]

Hi Janne,

thanks a lot for your submission... So you think my Pseuda are L97 I'm still not convinced, even if I have no other proposition

My problem is that the male is already 23 cm and much more dark than the pictures on L97 article. He has indeed light clear spots but very depending on his statement. If stressed (as you can see on the picture of this same topic when caught), he's very pale, tending to the brown... if in normal conditions, he's totaly black, with only lighter spotted coloration (like milk coffee) on the caudal fin only...

But the point could be true for other ID possibilities (L320, L65, L282, L186)... I will try to submit other pictures of the 2 adults in the next days...

thanks again...

[ElTofi]

Hatch + 12 days... yolksacks will soon be gone... first drop of Sera Viformo in the nursery... Some larvae go moving in the powder (creating micro-vortex very funny) but I guess it's more curiosity than need or hunger... yolksacks are not totaly resorbed and I haven't found the tiny little pieces of s**t which would prove that everything begins to work...

I'm a bit anxious, cause generaly, this milestone isn't without any problem... I have seen quiet often larvae die at this stage... At least, with Hypancistrus... cause I don't have enough experience with Pseuda. All I can be sure of, is that the first juvenils were at this stage when I saw them. I can assume they were (the 32 first) more or less 13-15 days old when I collected them in March 08.

Picts of the day... you can still see the speed growing differences (yolksack size and color)

[Cristoffer Forssander]

I still think you sould add sand ore something and just don't use the plastic bottom... it is likely you're fry vill die from the bacterias. Especially Pseudacanthicus fry are sensetive to this, according to Ingo Seidel. My experiece with Leporacanthicus confirms hes notes in The Back To Nature - L-numbers.

Its' more critical when you're starting to give them food.... would bee very sad too see any of them dead!

Very nice images!

First I didn't think about L97, case the male lacks the right colors, but the juvenles color makes me a bit unsertain. I've never seen a large L97, so perhaps they loose some of their color when they get older as many other plecos do. Perhaps Janne is right!!!? But still, whatever species, its a great breedingtale!!!

Regards
Cristoffer

[ElTofi]

In fact, the bare plastic bottom is the easiest way I found to keep the nursery very clean. With the help of a "sponge" air-filter (coming into the left box from above) and of a light flow of stream (coming from a TUNZE Nano, at the other side of the tank) in the floating box, I only have to clean the nursery once a day... You can maybe see, on the first picture (2 answers before), the openings on each side which permits the stream to go through the nursery. And as you see on first picture, the fry is facing the stream, like (supposed) in the wild... on the second, the flow is coming from the sponge filter, from the left, and you see the fry facing the stream, "around" the point where the water falls into the nursery.

I post the same picture that on the start of the "tale", just to show you what I mean. The nurseries are along the stream from right to left. I added the sponge air filter on the second (left), cause the stream is not strong enough to go through both of them...


As said, I only use this way during transition between yolksack and self feeding (about 4-5 weeks), just to be sure that they're doing fine... and then, as you suggest, I put them in a "growing" tank of 54 liters, with 5-8 mm sand on the bottom and a lot of caves, rocks, and other hiding places...

I'll keep posting to inform you... Cristoffer, maybe you could post a few pictures of your "fry growing" installations, would you ? It could be very interesting to compare.

thanks in advance.

[Haavard Stoere]

At least you should add a bunch of snails to eat the bacteriafilm that will form on the bottom of the nurceries. I would use both sand and snails.

[ElTofi]

At least you should add a bunch of snails to eat the bacteriafilm that will form on the bottom of the nurceries. I would use both sand and snails.

Absolutely ! I have 3 conics snails (from Malaysia : "melanoïdes" in French) in each nursery. Is it enough ? All I can say is that the bottom is very clean, as if it was brand new... And I'm very carefull that this state last...

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

I will send you a photo on my breedingbox! Perhaps I hav bad water case many of my Leporacanthicus died when I didn't use sand.
The snails are very helpful but I hate to have them in my aquarium as the get stuck in my filters.

Photo is on the way!

Regards
Cristoffer

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi!

Here is a photo of my breedingboxes. Its a new prototype, so its not complete yet.




Regards
Cristoffer

[ElTofi]

who said that fairy tale were always finishing good ? Not I...

just to keep in touch, bad news from the 160 Pseuda babies... lethal news, I would say...

Right before my holidays, I had to raise my hours at work, just to be sure not to be bored at home during vacation... And my f...ing internal filter of course choosed this very moment to get stucked by a snail and to fall appart during 2-3 days... I only discovered it when it was too late, just by smelling... I was only throwing a few feeding tabs in the nursery eraly in the morning from 3 days, without doing any other check in the evening... on the 4th day (Saturday), I just could see the tragedy... stinking water, more than 50 dead babies... Emergency response wasn't sufficient

During the next 4 days, I lost every single Pseuda babies... I'm mad... Even if I know what went wrong, it's too stupid...

Those are lost... I just can show you the babies from the first spawning right before they left for France... They already found new homes... I'm glad about it...







Nothing more to say... till the next spawning... which will be stimulated in November 08... I'll keep in touch...

[Bas Pels]

Sorry to hear this

However, you did manage to get a first batvch to France - thus to others, and you still got the parents

I once had to try and find fishes I sold - to replace the parents

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Damn those snails!!! Thats sucks!!!
I had the same problem this summer, but I had more than one filter... I was lucky!

Hope that w´ll see anoter spawning soon.
Have the male guraded the eggs untill hatching or have you always raised them youreself?

Very Nice photos!

Best Regards
Cristoffer

[ElTofi]

Damn those snails!!! Thats sucks!!!
...Have the male guraded the eggs untill hatching or have you always raised them youreself?...

It was without any problem untill the hatching... at this time, the male only lost a few larvae (around 15), but this exception made, it seems he's an excellent father... Next time, I'll let him do the job till hatching (7 days at 28°C) + 2-3 days, just to be sure they have all hatched...

[Cristoffer Forssander]

Hi

Crossing my fingers for the next breeding tale then!
Would be very interesting to see images of you're female if you have any to share with us!


Would also be very interesting to solve what species you have!