S. angelicus-is it true that they are vicious to eachother?

[emartin]

One of the main reasons I decided on keeping Synodontis decorus in my Malawi hap tank instead of Synodontis angelicus was because I've heard that they can be VERY vicious to each other unless you keep a huge school of like 10 or more instead of 3-6. Is this true? Could 3-6 get a long in a 265g (7ft long by 2ft wide by 2.5ft tall)? I'm considering keeping them a year from now if and only if I decide to sell my Synodontis decorus.

~Ed

[sidguppy]

this is tricky

sometimes they just co-exist, but it's true: this is definitely 1 of the more territorial Syno's.

if the tank can handle it get 4 or 5 or so. they grow to a fair size (10" or even bigger), but it takes a long time. after reaching 6-7" the growth slows down.

2 or 3 is not a good number with such a feisty fish. 1 on the other hand will do just fine, but often larger fish get extremely nocturnal.
I've seen fully grown angelicus co-exist without harming each other.
as small individuals they tend to be far more territorial than adults.

but why not go for a Tanganyikan Synodontis?
they're much more social and also a lot more visible.
for a large tank you can get Synodontis dhonti or S tanganicae or S granulosus, or a large group of 1 of the smaller species.
these are fish that show up during the day, they like the waterparameters and they also co-exist with cichlids in the wild.

[emartin]

this is tricky

sometimes they just co-exist, but it's true: this is definitely 1 of the more territorial Syno's.

if the tank can handle it get 4 or 5 or so. they grow to a fair size (10" or even bigger), but it takes a long time. after reaching 6-7" the growth slows down.

2 or 3 is not a good number with such a feisty fish. 1 on the other hand will do just fine, but often larger fish get extremely nocturnal.
I've seen fully grown angelicus co-exist without harming each other.
as small individuals they tend to be far more territorial than adults.

but why not go for a Tanganyikan Synodontis?
they're much more social and also a lot more visible.
for a large tank you can get Synodontis dhonti or S tanganicae or S granulosus, or a large group of 1 of the smaller species.
these are fish that show up during the day, they like the waterparameters and they also co-exist with c*****ds in the wild.

I would definitely like for example S. granulosus, but the problem is they are either rarely available here in the USA (at least on Eastern Seaboard and South). Right now I know of two sellers that currently have or recently had S. granulosus and wanted about $200USD each...which is ridiculous...that's more than what new Gibberosa/Frontosa variant imports cost!

At first I wanted any good scavenger in this tank and wanted initially Clown Loaches but decided against as I wanted the tank to have mostly African fish (with an exception to the plecos).

Right now I have Synodontis decorus which I like and am considering maybe one day getting rid of them for angelicus.


Speaking of the decorus, how many as a minimum would get a long long term with three large caves (not likely more in the future, the caves are very large and tank up a lot of room...but if it's a life or death necessity with the decorus I guess I'll try and fit one or two more in)? Currently I have two 6-7" wild caughts, one is happily rotating between all the caves and seems fine with sharing them with the plecos and faps. However when I had the second decorus in there all he did was chase the crap out of it. Right now the second is being treated for parasites since he wasn't eating. Say if I add one more, would that be enough for them to divide the fighting three ways possibly and get a long? That way they each get their own cave.

Or would it be best with the decorus to have like 4 or five in there? The problem is, at their full grown size I don't like the idea of a lot of them in there... but at the same time I would like to have more than just the one. If there is no chance of the two eventually getting a long any time soon after the second one recovers from its illness and not much of a chance of three of them getting a long, is it possible that only for now until they get bigger that I have a larger group but eventually take out the rest of them and just keep two or three?

What I wanted was an attractive african catfish that doesn't get insanely large like the Synodontis acanthomias but not too small to possibly be a snack for the cichlids, some of the ones I keep will one day be in the 8" up to 18" range....any suggestions other than the angelicus and decorus? I did consider the flavitaeniatus but decided against it as they don't look as nice as a lot of the other cats...

~Ed

I do like some of the Tanganyika cats but I don't want any that will parasite breed...and if I'm not mistaken multis do that and petricolas are thought to do that.

[Birger]

I keep five angelicus together, the only time things got brutal between them in their tank is when some Hemichromis decided to spawn and took over one entire side pushing all the cats into close quarters...vicious squabbling began over the remaining hiding places and if I would not have pulled the Cichlids it could have turned into a disaster. After pulling the Cichlids things settled down right away because there are more caves than catfish, which is always a good practice, do not expect them to share.
In your tank though, as suggested earlier, I would look for some Tanganyikan cats as they would work best. If the only difference to you is cost the S. angelicus this year were going for a very high price for some reason, so you may as well look for some of the more suitable cats.
Birger

[emartin]

I keep five angelicus together, the only time things got brutal between them in their tank is when some Hemichromis decided to spawn and took over one entire side pushing all the cats into close quarters...vicious squabbling began over the remaining hiding places and if I would not have pulled the c*****ds it could have turned into a disaster. After pulling the c*****ds things settled down right away because there are more caves than catfish, which is always a good practice, do not expect them to share.
In your tank though, as suggested earlier, I would look for some Tanganyikan cats as they would work best. If the only difference to you is cost the S. angelicus this year were going for a very high price for some reason, so you may as well look for some of the more suitable cats.
Birger

Well currently I'd like to keep the decorus for a while, and possibly long term if I can get them to get a long (may have to add pvc pipes or flower pots until they accept each other's pressence...).

Currently this is my tank design:
Before, when the catfish were fighting all the time shortly after I received the second one in the male:

More pics of before: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 26#1132226

After:

More pics of after, including close ups of the two new caves: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... 14#1186414

Those caves are really big...my 8" Exochochromis anagenys male can fin in two of them comfortably...the one furthest to the left is kind of tight...I may expand it to make it larger but right now it's fine for the plecos and catfish... I'd really rather not add another cave as they take up soooo much room (wanted to have the tank have a rocky look but at the same time very open for the haps, particularly on the bottom).

If I was to add another one though, I'd put it against the back glass and it'd be a skinny one...or I may put on in the dead center of the tank...not sure.

~Ed

[Richard B]

$200USD for Syno Granulosus sounds a good price actually!!!
These are difficult to collect in the wild so prices will invariably be more than the easier to collect c*****d species. Even the limited captive spawns in the uk have yielded only a very few young

Petricola are not cuckoo spawners like the multis & grandiops.

Angelicus are difficult to advise about as they can be ok or very aggressive & no two situations ever seem the same - ie when i worked in a lfs we got in 30, 2" anglicus that went into a 3x2x2 - no problems as all, some got sold & the others grew & when we got to 7 left the biggest (4.5") got mean on the others, he got moved & peace returned. However 3 10" specimens nver got on at all in a 6x3x3 . It is correct though that generally the sub-adults give the most problems with aggression.

[sidguppy]

200 US$ is a bargain!
that's about 128Euro.......wich is ridiculously low, really.
if these are genuine, it's perhaps the cheapest place I've ever heard of.

over here they are 345E wich translates to 541$
go figure......

[davidkozak]

I've found that in a tank with lots of rockwork the agression isn't bad at all...without very much rockwork, they are positively nasty to each other...even in larger groups...just my experience..David

[sidguppy]

Marduk, I haven't heard your opinion on the less expensive Tanganyika Syno's wich still are a lot more suitable than either angelicus or decorus

a large group of petricola or multipunctatus or a smaller group of the large but peaceful dhonti or tanganicae or true polli would really boost this tank

or -if you can get the real thingy- the true njassae, the REAL Malawi Syno.

with the large Haplochromines you got in there, the social Synodontis njassae in a group of 4-6 would be a perfect match.

[emartin]

Marduk, I haven't heard your opinion on the less expensive Tanganyika Syno's wich still are a lot more suitable than either angelicus or decorus

a large group of petricola or multipunctatus or a smaller group of the large but peaceful dhonti or tanganicae or true polli would really boost this tank

or -if you can get the real thingy- the true njassae, the REAL Malawi Syno.

with the large Haplochromines you got in there, the social Synodontis njassae in a group of 4-6 would be a perfect match.

I thought about the Synodontis njassae... Currently I only know of one person in the USA that currently has them in stock. He has them labeled as Synodontis nyassae (common mistake I guess) wildcaught for $35usd each http://www.greatlakestropical.com/MalWild.html

The problem though is that from the picture he posted they look hideous compared to the pics in the profile here:


Other ones I am considering was Synodontis polli which the same seller has, but one of the reasons I didn't get them is because they weren't available at the time I did order Synodontis, and even though his picture of his stock looks nice a good handful of the profile pics here look awful...
His S. polli that he has for sale:





About the Synodontis decorus though (since I already have them), what could I do to get them to get a long? Would just adding more pvc pipes in the meantime until they tolerate each others presence be fine? Would adding 1 more making it a group of 3 be adequate? Or would be adding an extra cave be best for the two? Or, lastly, would I have to purchase more to make it a group...and if I do this when they're adults could I possibly remove some of them to bring it back down to a lot number?

~Ed

[Martin S]

I am no expert at all, but I would say the first picture is not of

synodontis njassae

!
Second picture looks more like a lake syno to me, but which one i couldn't say.
Martin

[sidguppy]

the Synodontis in the first picture are hybrids; some unholy mix of ocellifer/nigrita/eupterus

definitely NOT njassae.
not to be boasting, but the pictures in the catelog are all made by yours truly. they are the genuine article; I made those pictures when the Verduijns had received a shipment from the late Steward Grant himself, straight from Malawi.

the last Synodontis in the picture is from the petricola-clade. it's not a polli, but it IS a wildcaught specimen of what sometimes called "petricola widemouth" or "Giant Petricola". one of those varieties/subspecies from the central east coast of Tanganyika.

polli differs from petricola by a much stockier build, a dark dorsal spine, bigger spots, a brown body color and a huge wide mouth with loads of teeth on thick fleshy lips

true Synodontis polli have a distinct "pleco like" appearance. the old name for polli was S eurystomus wich was aimed at it's stocky and wide built.

een paar plaatjes even 'Gejat" van vrienden; fotograaf is Gijs Knoop, who's also a member here known as "Dhonti":

Synodontis polli


mouth of Synodontis polli, notice the huge upper lip, the numreous teeth (this is a specialized snail eater) and the minute barbels.

another side view of Synodontis polli, made by Gijs:

[Martin S]

His S. polli that he has for sale:

Sid
So, just to clarify (for my interest) - you are saying that the fish in this picture is of a wildcaught specimen of what sometimes is called "petricola widemouth" or "Giant Petricola"?
Martin

[sidguppy]

I think so, yes
1 of them, I can't say wich one

but don't quote me on it, cause really; the whole petricola clade is 1 big mess.......

it might even BE a polli, but I don't think so. a shot from the side of the whole fish or a shot from the mouth when viewed from below should clarify things

petricola and allies have greish teeth that sometimes border on yellowish

polli has orange or even pink teeth and the teethband is so much larger when compared to one of the many petricola's.

[Richard B]

Sid - (with utmost respect) are you 100% sure the fish in photo 1 are hybrids & not really poor quality njassae, maybe a regional variant of the large-spot type?

I recognise these are very different to the cat-e-log photos which are clearly genuine njassae but the photo 1 fish bear a passing resembelance to the fish depicted in Sands (CoTW vol 2 & Interpet guide to African & Asian catishes) which is more brown than silverish but has (to my knowledge) been imported direct from malawi & therefore must be njassae

I'm not saying the photo 1 fish aren't hybrids but they seem close-ish to njassae, but not good or typical specimens.

although it means very little, the lfs website indicates they are wild caught

I'd love to hear your thoughts

[emartin]

Maybe I'll get a small group (3-5) of Synodontis petricolas if my S. decorus don't work out soon...


In the mean time though, any advice for making the decorus more comfortable, so they don't fiercely fight each other over caves? I currently have two and won't be able to get any more any time soon...the two are 6-7". Right now there's more than enough caves...and actually my Synodontis decorus that's already in the main tank recently dug himself a new one underneath a piece of driftwood...

~Ed

[emartin]

Does this look like pure Synodontis petricola? They're being sold as wildcaughts:


Do you think if I got saw 3 or 4 of those, do you think they would get a long with the S. decorus already in the tank, or would I have to remove the S. decorus first?

~Ed

[sidguppy]

Sid - (with utmost respect) are you 100% sure the fish in photo 1 are hybrids & not really poor quality njassae, maybe a regional variant of the large-spot type?

quite sure, because the shape of the fish is all wrong

the pattern matches, but the headshape, the sloping back towards the dorsal and the tailfin are all wrong for njassae
I'm convinced these are hybrids.

I ain't unfallable, guys (wish I was ), but I've seen njassae on a number of occasions and I've seen fakes many times more.

[Richard B]

Cheers Sid

Marduk - the image doesn't appear

[emartin]

Cheers Sid

Marduk - the image doesn't appear

I uploaded it to a different host now:

[Martin S]

Marduk - the image doesn't appear

That's odd Richard - I can see it in both posts!

[Richard B]

Aha, i can see it now & yes it is a petricola - many "regimented" same size body spots and white leading edge to the dorsal

[emartin]

So do you think they could (a small group) temporarily or even long term get a long with 1-2 Synodontis decorus in the tank 7ft long tank?

[Richard B]

Er, yes i think so. Petricola are a small species & decorus are a gentle giant, so there should be no aggro in a 7foot, if that's what you want.

Personally i would go for all tanganyikan synos in a tank like that, but that's cos they're my sorta thing

[emartin]

Er, yes i think so. Petricola are a small species & decorus are a gentle giant, so there should be no aggro in a 7foot, if that's what you want.

Personally i would go for all tanganyikan synos in a tank like that, but that's cos they're my sorta thing

Well personally I like the look of the S. decorus best, and pretty much all Tanganyika synos are my second favorites...one of the reasons why I'm considering mixing them is to try and divert the decorus' attention from eachother (stop their fighting)...in other words use the petricolas or whatever non-multipunctatus cat I choose as a dither cat...

At the same time I don't want to many catfish that could interfere during breeding...then again I don't think they'd want to interfere with a 14" fish that's breeding...

Do Tanganyika cats swim around the tank during the day time besides during feeding? I've heard mixed stories that they hide all the time and only come out at night or during feeding, or that they are out and about all the time...

[Richard B]

My tank is crammed with rockwork taking up 45% of the volume so my synos could choose to hide away & NEVER be seen if that was their wish.

However, this gives them a feeling of total security & they are always cruising round the rocks & going in & out of the caves.

It is in the nature of a lot of catfishes to hide when in aquaria, which is completely natural but not what owners generally want. It is therefore up to the responsible aquarist to set up the tank to meet the needs of the fishes & combine this with his/her own requirements.

If the synos are happy, there should be an amount of daytime activity, not just nocturnal action