Beef heart for cories

[kabaltah]

Hello, I give beef heart to my bichirs and sometimes my banjo cats, but I wonder if is it safe or a good choice as additional nutrion for cory cats?

[Bas Pels]

untill someone is able to show me a place where fish are fed with beefheat in nature, I will not feed it.

Beef comes from warm blooded animals (37 C), and therefore this meet will solidify at temperatures below this - say 35 C. Did you ever notice you fingers in winter are (not wearing gloves) stiff? This is because your skin is for cooler than your required 37 C, and this partly solidified

Fish have trouble digesting warm blooded animals. Some have adapted to doing this, such as piraña, but others better get cold bloaded feed - for Corydoras Daphina will suit much better

[Mike_Noren]

Piranha are not really adapted to warm blooded prey, they are fish-eaters. Also discus breeders typically feed beef heart to their fish, and discus are definitely not adapted to eating mammals.

My impression from trying to follow the various pro/con debates on beefheart/ground beef is that fish kept in warm water (from just below 30C and up) can be fed beef heart with no ill effects, but that fish kept in cool water get diarrhea (white stringy feces) and frequently develop dropsy. That also fits with my own limited experience of using beef heart.

Personally I consider mammalian meat to be much like frozen bloodworms: a protein rich feed but associated with an unacceptable risk to the health of the fish.

[bugleflugel40]

sorry, am I being daft here, or is Mike suggesting that frozen blood worms are an unacceptable health risk for fish? or just Cories?

[Bas Pels]

I think he does, for all fish

I consider mammalian meat to be much like frozen bloodworms: a protein rich feed but associated with an unacceptable risk to the health of the fish.

in fact I do agree regarding to the bloodworms

They are found in very dirty, most often heavily polluted water - and the pollution is very often chemical.

[kabaltah]

Thanks for the answers. I have friends who feeds their discus beef heart all the time and they say that it is very nutrious but has a slight chance of causing internal parasites. I'm feeding one of my bichirs only with beef heart because it is a full size wild caught specimen and denies all the food except raw meat and feeder fish. But, as long as you all say that it is not suitable for cories, ok then I'll not give them beef heart.
But can you please advice me a good food for cories which can be used for breeding purposes. As a principle I never give my animals blood-worms neither live, frozen or dried. I lost many fish and turtles caused by parasites which come from blood worms. Also I really dont have enough time to hatch brine shrimp every day. So What can I feed to my cories as a protein rich diet which helps females to be filled with eggs? Of course other than blood worms, live brine shrimp and beef hearth.

[Birger Amundsen]

This is the first time I`w heard that blood worms are unfit cory food....... I`w used it for years, and will continue to do so. It`s always been my main source to condition my corys for breeding.

[kabaltah]

By the way I'm not talking about "blood worms" , I live in Turkey and there is no live blood worms, as blood worm I mentioned "tubifex worms" and I'm sure they carry disease. Blood worms are found only dried and frozen but dried ones are not good for breeding and frozen ones are very hard to find fresh. So I still need an advice on alternative breeding purpose food for corries.

[Birger Amundsen]

Regarding blood worms, I only use frozen, and also some freeze dried tubifex. What about digging up some earth worms, superb food for corys. Just cut them up in mall pieces, and best of all, they are free of charge

[kabaltah]

Free of charges but full of unknown microorganisms. I didnt try it for fish before. I think it can be more dangerous than beef heart. Thanks anyway..

[Birger Amundsen]

Just let me say, that the British cory expert Ian Fuller recommends, and USE it as a superb food for corys. I keep about 50 species of corys my selves, and use blood worms, tubifex and earthworms all the time.

What do you think fish in the wild eats?

[Bas Pels]

mysis, black musquito larvae, white mosquito larvae, cyclops, daphina, partly decomposed plant material, on a good day perhaps some newly hatched fishes, you name it

I have a few unused tanks outdoors, which mostly contain rain water, thus very clean, and red mosquito larvae are very rare. They do, however contain daphina and black mosquito larvae

[kabaltah]

What do you think fish in the wild eats?

Dont think they eat earth worms in the nature but since That you can be considered as a cory expert, I'll give it a chance.
How do you prepare earth worms then? How is the cleaning, disenfecting and serving procedure?

Bas Pels, it is a very good idea, raising our own live food for your fish but I really lack space for more tanks. I can only setup tanks in my own room and have 7 already, I dont have place for even a 10 gal tank. But I'm planning to raise microworms if I can find some culture.
Also does anyone use microworms?

[apistomaster]

I have used beef heart blends containing earth worm. flakes, F.D. Blood worms(Chironomidae larvae), powdered Spirulina and whatever else I feel like mixing into a batch for many decades. Mainly used it for Discus but most fish seem to like it and I have never noticed any problems caused by it.
Even Corydoras like it. Fish grow very quickly and robustly when beef heart blend is part of their regular diet.

I have used real Tubifex but my source was cleaned up and the Tubifex disappeared. I buy live black worms for the same effect, which is, it helps make many fish easier to spawn.

These are the real benefits I have observed rather than the hypothetical musings.
We are free to feed our fish whatever they will eat or not. I wouldn't use these foods if I had a good reason not to.

Fish do eat earthworms in the wild whenever the get the opportunity. It has also been demonstrated that earth worms are among the best of foods for carnivorous fish.

[Birger Amundsen]

apistomaster has a real good answer I`m by now way an expert, but only give of my experience. Try and dig up some earth worms, chop them up and feed your corys, I`l guaranty that you`l be amazed.
I keep a lot of other fish, like apistos, and whenever i find ants, flies and mosquitoes, they go in the tank. And they don't lay long on the surface.
I keep a pair of a rather rare specie of betta, Betta macrostoma,(rare in Norway though) they love small shrimps for ex. I treat them with baby shrimps from cherry shrimps once in a wile.
This is all natural food for the fish in the wild.

[kabaltah]

Ok thanks again for the answers. At the moment all my females are full as if they gulped balls, after they are emptied I'll first try beef heart then if I have time to find some, will try earthworms.

[racoll]

[earthworms] Free of charges but full of unknown microorganisms. I didnt try it for fish before. I think it can be more dangerous...

Fish are no different from humans in this respect. General background germs are easily dealt with by the fishes immune system, providing it is in good health.

What you need to worry about are the fish specific pathogens that aggressively seek to destroy fish. It is unlikely you'll find these in garden soil. These are likely to be introduced with other fish!

Do make sure no pesticides have been applied to near where the worms are collected though.

I feed earthworms (Eisenia fetida actually, rather than Lumbricus spp.) whole without even washing them (soil and all!). Never had any problem.

Fish have trouble digesting warm blooded animals.

Beef comes from warm blooded animals (37 C), and therefore this meet will solidify at temperatures below this

While this idea seems to make sense, and is a popular opinion in the fishkeeping world, i'm not sure if it is true. Bread is solid at 37C, but that mean I have solid pieces of bread in my blood. My digestive enzymes break down the bread down into smaller molecules. The same is true for the fats. These will be broken down by lipases, so they are small enough to enter the blood.

Not saying I am definitely right, just playing devils advocate and questioning the accepted wisdom

[Bas Pels]

Fish have trouble digesting warm blooded animals.

Beef comes from warm blooded animals (37 C), and therefore this meet will solidify at temperatures below this

While this idea seems to make sense, and is a popular opinion in the fishkeeping world, i'm not sure if it is true. Bread is solid at 37C, but that mean I have solid pieces of bread in my blood. My digestive enzymes break down the bread down into smaller molecules. The same is true for the fats. These will be broken down by lipases, so they are small enough to enter the blood.

Not saying I am definitely right, just playing devils advocate and questioning the accepted wisdom

Good point, some explaining is needed

As you rightfully pointed out, a digestive system can cope with solid foods - if adapted to it.

Why would a cardinal tetra be able to digest solid meaty material? It eats small wateranimals, which are all cold blooded, and thus liquify after the celmambranes are dissolved, and the carapaxes are broken (hence the teeth)

All abilities which are unused are a handicap in the struggle for survival, so the cardinal tetra will not be able to digest solid meaty material

only a fish which does eat warmblooded meat will use this feat, and thus have it. I thought the piraña was an example, but I stand corrected. therefore I rather not mention one

Humans eat bread, and thus we can cope with it. it is as simple as that

[racoll]

Why would a cardinal tetra be able to digest solid meaty material? It eats small wateranimals, which are all cold blooded, and thus liquify after the celmambranes are dissolved, and the carapaxes are broken (hence the teeth)

But you make an assumption that the lipases in fish are specific in their action to unsaturated lipids, rather than being broad based enzymes able to metabolise both saturated and unsaturated lipids....

[Bas Pels]

This assumption I did not make, I only referred to solid vs liquid, and that is what I intended to say. I have no clue whether these lipases are specific, and I'm afraid it has not been studied for fish

You are right that saturated fats are solid at higher temps, but for now it matters not what makes the lipases solis.

solid fats are harder to penetrate for lipases (and lipase enhancers, such as gal liquid) and thus the lipases don't work that well

although I studies chemistry, here I refer to a fysical problem, which can be solved (no pun intended) by more agressive lipases, or better enhancers

[Mike_Noren]

Sorry, I missed this thread.

The reason I don't feed my fish frozen bloodworms (by which I mean midge larvae/chironomid-larvae, not small annelids like Tubifex - sorry for any confusion) is because I have come to believe they are very frequently poorly handled after capture. I.e. that they are allowed to die and start to decompose before being frozen. That might not be too bad if they were reliably x-ray irradiated, but my impression is that they're frequently not. There is especially one brand of frozen bloodworms where I know if I feed it to my fish I'll have fish dying from bloat within days.

Basically I think bloodworms are either treated with less care or go bad more easily than other frozen foods, and feeding rotten food to your fish is a sure-fire way of killing them.

As other have pointed out both Tubifex and chironomid larvae are natural food items for most bottom living fish, and I'd happily feed my fish with it - if I trusted the worms to be fresh and clean.

[Bas Pels]

Perhaps it does say a lot the well known bands for freeze dried fishfood don't sell frozen food

I think they dare not 'burn their name' with it

[jar]

Who thought, "I wonder if I go down to the shops and buy some heart and feed it to my fish if they would like it"

Why feed heart to fish at all, why not other body parts? why not steak? I assume it was some clever person with excess heart in their meat factory that discovered marketing it as fish food makes good money?

[apistomaster]

Who thought, "I wonder if I go down to the shops and buy some heart and feed it to my fish if they would like it"

Why feed heart to fish at all, why not other body parts? why not steak? I assume it was some clever person with excess heart in their meat factory that discovered marketing it as fish food makes good money?

You are quite wrong. It was learned over 50 years ago that a properly prepared beef heart blend was a superior food for producing excellent growth rates of Discus and that adult discus did well when beef heart blends were part of a balanced diet. From there, it's utility as a good fish food for many other tropical fish was discovered. Corydoras were not among the fish for which beef heart was found to be particularly useful but those Corydoras kept with discus fed beef heart blends tended to grow very well and very large. That is a clue that the food is very nutritious.
The heart muscle is unique in structure and very different than skeletal muscle(steak). When mixed with other nutritious ingredients and vitamins one can grow discus fry very quickly to a salable size and at a fraction of the cost of commercially produced prepared fish foods.
Your cynicism is misplaced. It it the big producers of prepared fish foods who have you by the ***'s.

It doesn't matter that neither Discus or Corydoras don't eat beef heart in the wild. The important fact is that it has proven to be a food well liked and well assimilated by many tropical fish. The best beef heart blends are home made not store bought. Those sold in shops are almost universally inferior to those one makes for themselves. I have been making my own mixes for Discus for over 4 decades.

[apistomaster]

I buy both live blackworms and frozen blood worms(Chironomid larvae) and use them both in large quantities.
Freshness is everything. I buy my frozen blood worms directly from a manufacturer that supplies others who place their own brand on the packages. My packages are not branded. I buy about 50 lbs of frozen blood worms every six months. They arrive deep frozen packed in dry ice and then to a deep freezer.
I do not experience problems with these foods. if I did, I would not spend so much money on them.
Not everyone can handle such large orders and are lucky if they have LFS that sells frozen foods of any kind that have not been damaged due to thawing and refreezing. There are shops that do carry good quality frozen foods and if your's is one of them you should have no worries. As a buyer of small quantities, the onus of transporting them properly falls on you. Most frozen food related problems are due to the way the final buyer transports them home and stores them.
The concern about diseases and parasites being introduced from the use of frozen foods is largely founded on the use of mishandled spoiled foods and not any actual diseases or parasites these foods are alleged to contain. This is no different than frozen foods designed for human consumption. The manufacturer has no control over how the end user has or has not properly cared for their foods.