Llanos biotope catfish?

[Plecofanatic1989]

The only way I can think of for identifying a particular range such as Los Llanos Lagunas is to google each partcular species along with the word llanos or something. Short answer is its gonna take a LOT of time. Instead of being so constrained by the llanos, why not make a little room for error by going with fish from the Orinoco? There's a wider selection of fish in the whole Orinoco than there is in the llanos and they probably will be a little easier to come by. For example, the Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) is from the upper Orinoco. That would be a good schooling tetra from the Orinoco that you could easily substitue for llanos tetras and is very easy to obtain. School of Cardinals, pair of Rams, and a small school of Otos would be a very nice tank, sticking mostly to your Llanos Lagunas goal!
Josh

[MatsP]

Whilst I can understand the feeling of needing to be correct with regards to fish from the same area, but you should also consider that just because a number of species live in the same piece of river, they often have specialized habitats within the river - some live along the edges, others in the main stream, some in the plants in the more quiet bits, others in the high current rapids. So just because some fishes come from the same few kilometers of river doesn't necessarily mean that they "live together in harmony".

--
Mats

[racoll]

I agree with Plecofanatic1989. I think you may be constraining yourself too much with the Laguna Llanos biotope.

What you may end up with is spending a huge amount of time and money looking for a load of fish you may not even really want to keep.

Creating a biotope is admirable, but as Mats says, these fish are not often found side by side in nature. Finding plants will be another massive challenge, as there is very little data as to what regions plants are found in. This is not something most planted tank enthusiasts are interested in. There are also no exports of wild plants.

It seems the fish you really want to keep are the rams, so why not just design the tank around the rams?

Rams like hot water (82-86F), so choose other fish you like that will appreciate this also.

[fishman9809]

yea, I just wanted to create an authentic biotope because most other biotopes are just attempts at true biotopes. I guess that fish will be hard to find and buy, seeing that I am 14, so maybe I will go with a Orinoco "general" biotope. If I think I can just have a pair of Rams and about like, wat, 10 otos?

I'll ask at the c i c h l i d forums to see if I can keep Rams and Apistos together, although it is probably a no as apistos prefer colder water than the hot water Rams.

[apistomaster]

Nearly all Apistogramma spp will live in 82 to 86*F water. Say 84*F for your tank. Warm enough for Rams and tolerable for the Apistos. A. hongsloi is an an excellent choice as was already suggested.

I realize you are young and still have much to learn but keep in mind, you have your whole life ahead of you to fine tune your desire for a "perfect biotope" tank. In practice this is never very practical. A normal biotope transferred to an aquarium would look more like an under water compost heap of algae, dead leaves and rotting wood with small fish and big fish, prey and predators.

[fishman9809]

I understand that, or at least now I do . The guys at the c i c h l i d forums would freak if I put Apistos and Rams in a 20 long, they say the MINiMUM size for 1 PAIR of Rams, so the only thing I could keep is a docile fish, schooling fish, and the Rams. The docile fish are the Otos, and there are no nice schooling fish, so I guess I will go with the Rams and otos. so both otocinclus vittatus and mikrogeaphagus ramirezi get trapped in the Llanos?

oh, by the way, I heard before someone say I wasnt going to get any wild plants, I just meant plants from the general Llanos.

I need to make sure these plants can stand Ram temperature (in my tank 84):

Heteranthera Zosterfolia (Stargrass)
Echinodorus Tellenus (Pygmy Chain Sword)
Echinodorus Parviflorus 'tropica' (Dwarf Sword)
Limnobium laevigatum (Amazon Frogbit)

and I also need to know if otocinclus vittatus can survive 84 degrees.

[racoll]

he guys at the c i c h l i d forums would freak if I put Apistos and Rams in a 20 long, they say the MINiMUM size for 1 PAIR of Rams

I agree. Go with one or the other in that tank, not both. A pair of rams, a small shoal or tetras, pencilfish or hatchets and some Otocinclus would make a really nice tank.

and there are no nice schooling fish

Really? I'm sure you can find a species of tetra, pencil or hatchet that you like?

I need to make sure these plants can stand Ram temperature (in my tank 84):

Don't know about the others, but I keep frogbit at 83F.

so both otocinclus vittatus and mikrogeaphagus ramirezi get trapped in the Llanos?

Yes, according to the information I have, they are found in similar habitats in the Llanos.

and I also need to know if otocinclus vittatus can survive 84 degrees.

A good compromise would be 82F. Both would be happy at this temp.

[fishman9809]

accortding to most sites, 80 is the best for the plants and the fish. Penclifish come from this Llanos?!?!?!?!? those fish are awesome!!! I cant keep hatchets because my tank is open top.

hows this for stocking?:

1 pair of Rams
9 pencilfish
7 otocinclus vittatus.

82 might be the MAX for all life, everything will start to die if it is so hot. the reason I am keeping an SA tank is my bedroom gets excrutiatingly hot in the summer, so I need fish and plants that can survive high temps.

[fishman9809]

which pencilfish come from the Llanos, and do they come native like the Rams or trapped occasioanlly like the otocinclus vittatus?

[Plecofanatic1989]

As far as I can remember, there are no commonly imported Nannostomus sp. from the llanos. I could be wrong though. I think that you may have to compromise on the schooling charcins, if you do want them. I think your best bet for being close to authenticity is Cardinals. They're cheap, easy to get, and are from the Orinoco. Although a school of Rummies would sure look awesome !! N. beckfordi would be a nice looking addition as well, if you were determined to house pencilfish.
Good luck and remember that the point of having the aquarium is to relieve stress and have fun (even if you're trying to spawn them). It seems that this idea is creating more stress than it should. IMO you should pick fish that will entertain you. You mentioned Rummynose Tetras and I believe that that's the species of tetra you should go with. And I do feel your pain when it comes to biotope stocking. I'm going to be converting my 55 into an Altum Angel tank and have been struggling with biotope species to be housed with P. altum. If I can't find a Red-eye Tetra like species from the Orinoco, i WILL just add Red-eye Tetras (one of my faves!!). And my Nuggets will be in there despite the fact that they are from the Xingu (I love my nuggets more than anything).
Good luck and have fun
Josh

[apistomaster]

Nannostomus trifasciatus are fairly common to the llanos streams and happen to be the most beautiful of the pencils for their price range.


Altum Angels are very difficult fish to keep. Very difficult fish to acclimate and need very large tanks.
More info about Altums.
www.finarama.com

[fishman9809]

cool, I love pencilfish, they are beautiful, where can I find them to purchase? Altums are what Takashi Amano keeps in his HUGE house tank. He has like a school of like 25, amazing.

[fishman9809]

it says that the Nannostomus trifasciatus is found in the Amazon River basin. it doesnt mention anything on the Orinoco.

[MatsP]

Looking at Orinoco in Fishbase, it lists these two:
Nannostomus unifasciatus
Nannostomus anduzei

The genus Copella are also in the same family, and look similar, and the following as listed as Orinoco:
Copella compta
Copella natteri
Copella eigenmanni
Copella metae

--
Mats

[racoll]

those fish are awesome

cool, I love pencilfish, they are beautiful, where can I find them to purchase?

If you want to keep pencilfish, then keep pencilfish. They are perfectly suitable for your tank. It really doesn't matter that they're not from the Llanos. In reality, the only true biotope tank is a species tank.

A store with a good Peru supplier will be able to get a few different pencilfish species.

[fishman9809]

Looking at Orinoco in Fishbase, it lists these two:
Nannostomus unifasciatus
Nannostomus anduzei

The genus Copella are also in the same family, and look similar, and the following as listed as Orinoco:
Copella compta
Copella natteri
Copella eigenmanni
Copella metae

--
Mats

Thats awesome!!! It says tey like to school!!!! I like both the pencilfish, but I like the one-lined pencilfish, it looks great. I might decide on the Nannostomus anduzei because it has colors and my tank only has green, so they will stand out, but the one-lined would not. I'll ask on swap and shop places on plantedtank.net

for purchasing these fish. They seem hard to find.

[racoll]

for purchasing these fish. They seem hard to find.

Unfortunately you will not [i.e. be very, very unlikely to] find these species in the trade.

Your best hope for pencilfish is Nannostomus eques, N. marginatus, N. trifasciatus and N. beckfordi.

These sp. are exported from Peru/Brazil.

[fishman9809]

well, I know a good supplier of SA fish in San Francisco, and I will get the vittatus and the 1 lined pencilfish from them. I believe it is called Ocean Aquariums.

[fishman9809]

it has been a long time since I was last here, but i got my tank running with almost all the plants i need. unfortunately, i am having trouble finding all the fish but the Rams

Can somebody who went to the Llanos list ANY possible fish that CAN be found there?

I need help with fish. I have found a seller of the unifasciatus, but they are wild caught in Venezuela and Colombia, and therefore are very expensive. They also carry otocinclus vittatus, and they are also wild caught there. shipping is i believe 50 dollars, and fish add onto the price. By the way, the place that sells those fish is AnubiasDesign, a very reliable place, many people buy from them, but they are expensive

[racoll]

unfortunately, i am having trouble finding all the fish but the Rams

This is inevitable when you set the goal of a strict biotope. You can either relax your biotope criteria or be very, very patient. You will find the fish eventually.

but they are wild caught in Venezuela and Colombia,

With the exception of the rams, all your Llanos fish will be wild caught, which also means their availability is restricted to certain times of the year.

many people buy from them, but they are expensive

This usually means they are good quality and have been looked after well by the exporters/importers.

[fishman9809]

cool, thanks, i'll see when my tank is done planting, that i get fish from them, they are well known, so they must be good.

[fishman9809]

hello, yes its me, back again with some irritating question anyway, back to the previous question, which fish are from the Llanos laguna? i am having a lot of trouble finding the one-line, the deal with anubiasdesign is very tough, so i need some exit routes. i have found 2 places to buy mikrogeophagus ramerizi and otocinclus vittatus around me. i jsut need a schooling fish now. if i cannot find anything, maybe i can go with a small corydoras species or a small suckermouth or bottom dweller some one could recommend

-nick

[mummymonkey]

I think you already mentioned

Corydoras habrosus

.
A tank with a pair of Mikrogeophagus ramirezi, 8 cardinals and a half a dozen of these corys will look very nice I think.

[grokefish]

Spotted Doras

Matt

[fishman9809]

k guys, i decided my stocking, got tired of the stupid searching, so i broke down for Pristella maxillaris, Mikrogeophagus ramerizi, and Otocinclus vittatus. my lfs prolly doesnt have vittatus, but they look pretty darn close, prolly no one could tell difference. but u guys the catfish experts might

well, tank is up and running nicely, everything growing beautifully, gonna post some pics soon

luckily i picked a clear water biotope instead of a blackwater one, much easier to deal with

[fishman9809]

oh, and i found a tetra, but i doubt llanos, it says upper orinoco river basin (s)

thiss one:

http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/Species ... p?id=12394