Juvenille S. schoutedeni? S. aterrimus?

[rahendricks]

I was at a shop yesterday and saw a syno I didn't recognize. Sorry, I don't have any photos but it looked almost identical to the subadult pictures of S. aterrimus in the Cat-elog. Its roughly 2.5 inches in length. I asked the shop owner and he told me it was S. schoutedeni. I trust the shop owner but I don't see it. I did a few searches and came across some entries where the pictures of S. aterrimus were being questioned. I know a lot of young synos have similar patterning. Could this be S. schoutedeni? Are there other possibilities? At this size, 2.5 inches SL, wouldn't it be losing its juvenille coloration?

[Birger]

Look at the juvenile pictures of

Synodontis eupterus

Birger

[rahendricks]

Its not eupterus, at least not like any I've kept or seen. Pattern is not quite the same. Base color is charcoal, white veining is finer. Thinner if you get my meaning. There's more of the charcoal than the white percentage wise. Maybe two thirds to one. Body type is more elongate. Actually, reminded me more of angelicus. Since I posted this I came across a description and pictures of a schoutedeni angelicus hybrid. Not quite the same but close. This dealer usually has a variety of synos, and I've never known him to carry a hybrid. He gets his synos from an African importer. Always a first I guess but I'm not quite ready to call it that. I assume you're not thinking its shoutedeni either? Do you consider the pictures of aterrimus in the cat-elog to be eupterus?

[Birger]

Base color is charcoal, white veining is finer. Thinner if you get my meaning. There's more of the charcoal than the white percentage wise. Maybe two thirds to one. Body type is more elongate. Actually, reminded me more of angelicus. Since I posted this I came across a description and pictures of a schoutedeni angelicus hybrid. Not quite the same but close.

Schoutedeni can be quite variable.
Where in Africa were they imported from?
Was it a contaminant with other kinds of syno's?
If so what kind?

What about this

Synodontis comoensis

there are a couple other blackish with white syno's but it is just a guess without some sort of picture to go on.

Birger

[Richard B]

I think this sounds a bit like a killjoy - sorry, but in this situation without a photo i think we're all just having a vague stab in the dark. There are potentially so many species it could be, (some we are familiar with & some we are not) & then the hybrid raises it's (ugly) head.

There is so much variation between hybrids from the same parent group as well - you mention the schoutedeni x angelicus cross - this is a good example as the difference in offspring can be massive - i'm not sure if this is influenced by which parent is male/female or any particular other factor but there is varience in angelicus & huge varience in schoutedeni so this probably explains it.

You also mention a previous debate about the correct ID of aterrimus, of which i have been a participant. Basically on this score i have the following to say. I believe that cat-e-log, seegars book etc ID aterrimus correctly & the pic that was used by Sands in CotW vol 2 & the salamander book is a distinct separate, (probably undescribed) species.

[loachy_406]

I agree with Richard, you can never ID 100% positive without (multiple) pictures.

[rahendricks]

I see other people post a "What is my catfish" with only a description, and I think, a picture would be nice. Sorry, now I'm the problem. I was in the area on business, without a camera, when I stopped in to the shop. I had my cell, but it takes bad pictures. Thought that would be worse than none. The shop is 100 miles from home so it may be a week or so until I'm back in the area. The pictures in the cat-elog of aterrimus are the closest I've found. Are shoutedeni variable enough that you would consider a fish patterned like those pictures of aterrimus to be shoutedeni? If there's a chance it is aterrimus I may just buy it. I can easily accomodate a 3.5" fish.

[Richard B]

Hey - no worries

The problem is there are so many variants of hybrids with synos - so a quick desciption isn't that good in this particular case, although it might be with other situations.

Schoutedeni are (perhaps to the more experienced eye only?) fairly easy to identify at 1" TL - if you think the fish matched aterrimus more than anything else in cat-e-log it could well be it is.

Is there any chance the dealer has a photo he could supply?

[Birger]

Is there any chance the dealer has a photo he could supply?

Now there is a good thought, wouldn't be too hard to email you a picture, if they wanted to make the sale.
Richard I am sure is very much like me in this, this sounds like an interesting syno and I would really like to ID it, but the whole hybrid thing has really thrown a twist into things, Shane who is currently living in South Africa has even reported seeing hybrids being in LFS there, who would have thought that would happen.
Another blackish and white syno not in the Cat-eLog is S. thamalakanensis but this fish is from more southern areas(Okavango and Upper Zambezi)and I doubt that would be it.

Birger

[Richard B]

by Birger on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:46 am

Another blackish and white syno not in the Cat-eLog is S. thamalakanensis but this fish is from more southern areas(Okavango and Upper Zambezi)and I doubt that would be it.

If i remember correctly (while i am at work), the seegars book shows this & it is a little different to aterrimus & schoutedeni.

by Birger on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:46 am

Richard I am sure is very much like me in this, this sounds like an interesting syno and I would really like to ID it,

- i won't lose sleep over it but i am intrigued!!!

by Birger on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:46 am

but the whole hybrid thing has really thrown a twist into things, Shane who is currently living in South Africa has even reported seeing hybrids being in LFS there, who would have thought that would happen.

- i know -i hate this situation -it is a poor state of affairs

[rahendricks]

Size is approx 3.5 inches SL. Pictures aren't the best and the tank/glass needs cleaning but here they are.






Thanks

[Richard B]

Hmmm - this is reminiscent of the schoutdeni x angelicus hybrid. That would be my opinion.....

[Birger]

This is very similiar to one that was identified as a hybrid quite a while ago(I couldn't find the post yet), the only difference was the head was more spotted on the other one, but the shape, pattern and colouration on the body was/is the same as this fish.

Birger

[rahendricks]

I looked through the hybrid photos, it does bare a resemblance to hybrid 3 picture 5. The pattern on this fish is not quite as "busy" as that one but there is probably a lot of variance with hybrids. You don't think there's any chance at aterrimus then?