Synodontis multipunctatus or nigriventris

[uknavynigel]

Sorry for the bad quality of the photos but i bought 2 Synodontis multipunctatus from east mids aquatics at the weekend and i have noticed them darting around the tank and swimming upside down,
they are not ill and are really settling in well, however i have a idea they may be Synodontis nigriventris can anyone help, i have looked on planet catfish and they do not seem to look like multi's at all.

thing is i'm not at home right now so i cant do better photos or check properly so i thought someone on here might know.

[I_Xeno]

It's a hybrid in my opinion

[Veikko]

Yep, hybrid. S. decorus probably been used as another species.

[uknavynigel]

Does it help that the fish enjoys swimming upside down?

Also if it is a hybrid is that good/bad, does that mean syno's can breed with different varieties of syno?

[Richard B]

is it good or bad? It depends on your point of view. Hybrids can be attractive & rewarding fish. However they are often not what they are sold as and many keepers want to keep only genuine species. It is really up to the individual.

Most hybrids are man-made in any form of fish but particulalrly catfish & more specifically synos. There is a miniscule possibility hybrid synos could occur naturally but it is so slim a chance we might as well ignore it

[zenyfish]

It's certainly unethical for any LFS for pass off hybrids as a naturally occurring species. To me, it's like paying for a throughbred and getting a mule.

[uknavynigel]

I was hoping it was not a hybrid but just labeled incorrectly, the lfs that i got it from has a good reputation so i thought they may have been labeled incorrectly, thanks for all your comments im going to get to the bottom of it, i',m going to put some more hopefully better photos on tommorrow.

[MatsP]

Unfortunately, there are wholesalers (even reputable ones) that sell hybrids as genuine fish, so it may simply be that the LFS is relying on the wholesaler to make correct ID's. [And the wholesaler may well rely on the importer/exporter/breeder to be honest and correct]. It is very easy for us catfish nuts to sit here and say "well, anyone can tell that it's not X, but actually a X + Y cross-breed", but if you have to deal with 100s of different types of catfish, along with 100s of different tetras, cichlids, barbs, loaches, eels and whatever else (some) fish-keepers are interested in keeping, you can understand that spotting the detail differences between something genuine and something not so genuine can get past the wholesaler - particularly if the more knowledgeable among the wholesaler staff happens to be watching some other tank the day the delivery comes in.

I think you should inform the LFS that it's a hybrid, so that any remaining fish are labeled correctly [assuming they wish to keep their reputation good].

--
Mats

[Richard B]

Mats has a very good point, excellently explained - many retailers will sell fish in good faith as that is what they believe them to be, as indicated to them by a wholesaler - not evryone is an expert on all aspects of aquaculture - i couldn't tell a hybrid c*****d if it jumped out the tank & bit me on the nose! However i'd like to think i'm pretty good at spotting syno hybrids - although i, like many other was taken in by the baby granulosus many, many years ago that were hybrids, before the genuine offspring appeared after being bred by a UK wholesaler a couple of years ago. Perhaps this is why i have a distinct dislike for hybrids (or rather the supply of them) & am constantly asking people to be wary of what dealers are describing.

[zenyfish]

Unfortunately, there are wholesalers (even reputable ones) that sell hybrids as genuine fish, so it may simply be that the LFS is relying on the wholesaler to make correct ID's. [And the wholesaler may well rely on the importer/exporter/breeder to be honest and correct].
Mats

Sorry, I don't buy it. This is the "Well, I didn't know it was against the law?" excuse. Too bad, it's one's responsibility to find out.
Customer holds the LFS responsible. Likewise the LFS holds the wholesaler responsible, and so on. The bucks has to stop some where.

[Bas Pels]

firstly, Zenyfish, I think European people look at such matters differently than you (plural) in the USA. Naturally I think ours is better

Should a fish seller need to have expert knowledge of all fishes he sells, not much would be left over. Further, I think, the experts would not accept any strange fish (for fear of problems) or unknown fishes collected together with the target fishes.

We, as a hobby, would be worse

[uknavynigel]

Seems i have started a good discussion here, i have rang the lfs and he now thinks we are right and it may be a hybrid, i still love the fish but i would like a name for them!
So here is another photo and utube link as promised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsJKpG9Ktzs

[Richard B]

uknavynigel - the last photo looks like

Synodontis sp_hybrid(1)

[Richard B]

Zenyfish - i think that's a tiny bit harsh (or am i misunderstanding?)

I know of dealers selling hybrids which were supplied from wholesalers as a genuine species, & the dealer ordered something he hasn't stocked before. When it was pointed out to him he changed the labelling & got in contact with his supplier to inform him & let him know he wasn't happy (i don't know the outcome of this )

There is the classic case of the baby granny's which were hybrids ( granny/petricola xnigrita) but as no-one had ever seen a baby granny before they were accepted as genuine (the white edges appear as the fish matures was what we were told but we clearly know this to be incorrect now).

Having commercial or made up common names doesn't help - as a completely ficticious example, a new sp of tetra - let's call it "flamingo tetra" could take the hobby by storm but later be revealed to be a hybrid after being passed off as a new sp, with no-one knowing.

[MatsP]

A way to describe it would be: Suppose you own a shop that sells clothes. You go ahead and order Levi's Jeans from the supplier you always ordered clothes from, and that has always supplied you from the time you started your shop 15 years ago, but never Levi's Jeans. Later you find that they are fakes. Is it your fault as a shop-keeper that you didn't know how to tell the difference (supposing these were non-obvious differences)? What if your supplier didn't know either (because they didn't have sufficient knowledge in spotting fakes, and they just ordered from their supplier). Yes, as a clothes shop owner, you are breaking the letter of the law by selling fakes - but you are not intending to break the law.

Sure, someone wielding syringes with hormones and crossing these fish KNOW that they are not genuine. But blaming the middle-men for not knowing the difference is harsh as Richard says - the real people at fault are those who create these fish.

--
Mats

[Bas Pels]

I fully agree with Matts. Unfortunately, the shopkeeper in his example will be in problems, should Levis desire so.

This kind of stuff happens to be my profession, but I do agree that the middlemen should be spared - even in trademark matters, where the law is getting moere fierce by the decade

[MatsP]

I fully agree with Matts. Unfortunately, the shopkeeper in his example will be in problems, should Levis desire so.

This kind of stuff happens to be my profession, but I do agree that the middlemen should be spared - even in trademark matters, where the law is getting moere fierce by the decade

But there's obviously a need for balance, as a shop-keeper [be it clothes or fish or other products] that is KNOWINGLY selling fake (whether it's hybrid Syno's or Levi's Jeans) should of course be liable for their actions.

--
Mats

[uknavynigel]

Cheers richard i think you are right, i finally have a ID! And cheers all for a interesting thred i hope to maybe contribute more in the futre as i learn more about my cats.

[Richard B]

I note you are in Notts - which is where i work - maybe bump into you sometime?

[uknavynigel]

Yeah at the weekends only at the moment as i am in the navy but leave soon(August) after 22 years, and i notice you are from warwick that is where i stop at the services on the m40 thursdays and sundays on my way to and from portsmouth!

Thanks again for the id.

I note you are in Notts - which is where i work - maybe bump into you sometime?