Does anyone use a buffer on their pleco tanks

jjkolodz · Post by **jjkolodz** » 30 Aug 2007, 03:12

I am considering using a buffer to help stabilize the pH in my tanks. I use RO water but I would like to keep my pH a little lower than that. Does anyone recommend a particular type of buffer? (I'd prefer not to have to mess with peat)

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 30 Aug 2007, 07:48

Regardless what kind of buffer you intend to use, almost all have side effects. I do not know whether you are a chemist (I am) or studied pharmacy, but if twice no, I'd recommend not to start with the project

You may dislike peat, but it is by far the best (frankly the only) solution for your problem

In fact, I would try to find fishes which can life in yout tap water. 1000 liter of water costs now 1.5 Euro, turning it into RO and adding stuff, will cost at least 20 or more euros (costs of the unit, waste water, costs of chemicals to aadd to the water)

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 30 Aug 2007, 08:06

Does anyone recommend a particular type of buffer? (I'd prefer not to have to mess with peat)

Peat will lower the pH slightly, which I don't think is what you want.

You need a buffer to stabilise pH, but there are many on the market that claim to lower pH (I think this is what you have in mind Bas?).

You want one that does not claim to "set" the pH at a certain level. These very often contain phosphates.

I use Kent pH Stable.

I add this to my water change RO water. Its very simple to use: the more you add, the higher the pH.

You don't need very much at all to keep your pH at between 6.5-7.0.

Make sure you don't add it direct to the tank, and always aerate the RO water for 24h to let the pH stabilise.

Have a read here for some more info.

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 30 Aug 2007, 16:23

You might be able to avoid adding a buffer if your tap water is hard enough. Try mixing it with RO water at varying ratios and see if you can get the pH you are after.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 11:04

You might be able to avoid adding a buffer if your tap water is hard enough. Try mixing it with RO water at varying ratios and see if you can get the pH you are after.

This is the easiest and safest way of getting minerals back in your RO water.

However sometimes tapwater is of such poor quality that you really don't want to add any back into your RO water.

Chrysichthys, our water is about as bad as it gets, which is why I use RO with buffers/added minerals.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Sep 2007, 11:31

He says he wants his pH lower than the pH the RO water has...There are buffers that do that but as Bas said,buffers are no no if you know their composition...They are not good for fish...Peat is by far the best for what you want to do...Completely natural and with no bad effects on fish...

racoll,
I dont know about this buffer but buffers are just intended to stabilize pH somewhere,they are not made to add necessary elements to RO water...Most of what they contain are chemicals of no use to fish...There are other products however that do better for what you want,RO right for example which just adds some neccessary minerals without containing a buffer,which is some salts meant to stabilize pH somwhere...

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 12:13

There are other products however that do better for what you want,RO right for example which just adds some neccessary minerals without containing a buffer,which is some salts meant to stabilize pH somwhere...

You are right Kostas, I also add "RO Right" along with the buffer "pH Stable". They serve different purposes.

He says he wants his pH lower than the pH the RO water has...

So he/she did, I must have mis-read that. However RO water has no set pH, as it is greatly influenced by even minute quantities of acids and alkalis (buffers). Even aerating it changes the pH.

here are buffers that do that but as Bas said,buffers are no no if you know their composition...They are not good for fish...Peat is by far the best for what you want to do...Completely natural and with no bad effects on fish...

I have to disagree here. If placed in neat RO water in a mature tank, peat will cause the pH to fall and fall. It will not buffer the water, as it only contains acidic tannins. Far from stabilising the pH, peat will cause a drop, and in the absence of any alkalinity (ie a buffer) the pH is likely to fall to levels that cause acidosis.

Perhaps jjkolodz you could elaborate a bit on what you want.

ie
What is the pH of the tank?
What is the KH (alkalinity/buffering capacity) of the tank?
What is the pH of the RO water?
What pH does you want in the tank?
What is the KH/pH of your tapwater?

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Sep 2007, 13:52

Yeah,thats true,RO water is influenced even by minute amounts of acids and by aerating...So you have to aerate prior to using anything to affect the pH...
Sorry,i had to better explain of what use of peat i suggest...
I suggest to place peat in the container in which the RO water is kept prior to adding to the tank...That way,when the target pH is achieved,the water is added to the tank and stays that way if it has enough hardness to not have a pH crash if something goes wrong...

Yes,with more information we could be more specific...

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 14:06

That way,when the target pH is achieved,the water is added to the tank and stays that way if it has enough hardness to not have a pH crash if something goes wrong.

Ah, but there is zero hardness, as it is RO water.

So we have to add a buffer of some description!

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Sep 2007, 14:33

Yes,forgot to mention it,RO right or something similar...Not a buffer but rather some minerals...

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 15:02

RO right is just neutral salts of mainly Ca, Mg, Na and K.

It therefore contributes very little in the way of alkalinity (buffering capacity).

An alkali salt must still be added in order to increase the alkalinity of the water, and prevent a fluctuating pH.

Chrysichthys · Post by **Chrysichthys** » 02 Sep 2007, 16:05

A very simple and stable way of buffering a tank is to add coral gravel to the substrate. It gradually dissolves as needed and keeps the pH at 6.5 to 7.0.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Sep 2007, 16:43

I think racoll gave the best advice if you are using RO water. We all are working with different tapwater and if it is of good aquarium quality to begin with then a blend of it and RO plus peat filtration is a good method.
I do not recommend using aragonite, dolomite or crushed coral as a buffer in soft acid water tanks. It is unpredictable and often self defeating in the effort of maintaining a low TDS and soft acid water.
If you use this method then try very lttle and keep it in a filter media bag so you can remove it should the pH and hardness begin to rise above your target.

It takes very little commercial buffer and RO Right or similar replacement to adjust your water to target values. Everything you add will raise the TDS. Use the minimum necessary to hit your target I still recommend peat in addition to the chemicals per racoll. At least if breeding fish is your goal. Many fish are stimulated to breed when you use peat when they might not otherwise breed. Be very conservative with the chemicals or again you will increase the TDS more than desired since you just got rid of them using the RO water.
If you are only using tapwater that is typical it will already be higher in pH and TDS than soft water fishes prefer. Adding chemicals to lower pH is only going to increase TDS and the stabilizers contain phosphates as has been pointed out. You never improve tapwater by adding chemicals(except dechlorinators). Peat is the way of causing the most benefit without raising pH and hardness significantly. With a little luck it will do the reverse. Depends on what you are starting out with.

tzwms · Post by **tzwms** » 02 Sep 2007, 17:46

Hi,
I'm new to this forum. I noticed that there was no mention of using Baking Soda (sodiumbicarbonte) as a buffer. Using Baking Soda allows you to increase the KH without increasing the GH. I have a 170gal planted tank and use a combination of tap water and RO to keep the GH at 3-6. I do 20% weekly water changes and add a tablespoon of baking soda each time. This keeps my KH around 6 and the pH close to 7.0. Comments?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 20:55

I'm new to this forum. I noticed that there was no mention of using Baking Soda (sodiumbicarbonte) as a buffer. Using Baking Soda allows you to increase the KH without increasing the GH. I have a 170gal planted tank and use a combination of tap water and RO to keep the GH at 3-6. I do 20% weekly water changes and add a tablespoon of baking soda each time. This keeps my KH around 6 and the pH close to 7.0. Comments?

Indeed. Baking soda is a perfectly good alkali salt to use as buffering/alkalinity/KH. A lot cheaper too. I may well use it when my tub of pH Stable runs out.

It takes very little commercial buffer and RO Right or similar replacement to adjust your water to target values.

I think Larry has the key point here. I use buffer and mineral replacement separately, as I have complete control over both and can create water of almost any pH/KH/GH.

It also means I don't have to add extra nitrate back into the water.

Landlubber · Post by **Landlubber** » 02 Sep 2007, 22:25

I found Kent Liquid calcium, Epsom salt and bicarbonate of soda is good for buffering water.

PS: Don't use Baking soda it has other ingredients, Bicarbonate is pure.

tzwms · Post by **tzwms** » 02 Sep 2007, 22:36

Landlubber wrote:PS: Don't use Baking soda it has other ingredients, Bicarbonate is pure.

Baking Soda is pure sodium bicarbonate. Baking Powder has other ingredients.

[Mod edit: fixed quotes and removed duplicate post --Mats]

Landlubber · Post by **Landlubber** » 02 Sep 2007, 22:54

I was just a word of caution as I have used many diffarent "Baking soda" Labeld products that contained cream of tartar.

AndrewC · Post by **AndrewC** » 24 Apr 2008, 21:12

I have kept my fish in; ph 7, kh 1 & gh1 tap water since the beginning, but i change my tanks water weekly and clean poo out of tanks and top them up each day, which i think has helped stop my ph from crashing.
I know a kh of 1 is low and suprisingly i haven't had any trouble with my fish, it is new additions and unexplained fry deaths i can sometimes have trouble with.

I recently got an ro unit and store my water in 50g tubs, i add 5 teaspoons of ro right to a tub (1 teaspoon for every 10g), and the storage tub reads; ph 6.8, kh 1, gh 1, tds 85, but the water has still has a kh of only 1.
So i add 2 teaspoons of ph stable to a tub, the storage tub then reads; ph 7.8 (could be higher, the A.P.I. test kit only shows up to 7.

, a kh of 2 and a tds of 124.

My tap water was the exact same, any time i tried to raise the kh the ph went through the roof, and i am only trying to get a kh to 3, for minimum buffering.

I was thinking of trying a seachem buffer (non phosphate) for my water, so that i can get a slightly acid to neutral water, and the water will also be buffered ?

Has anybody else had problems trying to buffer there waters ph and the ph going off the scale ?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Apr 2008, 11:33

Hi Andrew.

Have you read this article about water chemistry? http://planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/sh ... cle_id=332

I use both Kent RO Right and pH Stable, and they are good products. I would steer clear of any products that claim to "set" the pH at say 6.5.

The reason your pH shoots up is because pH Stable is an alkali (a buffer). When you add the water to the tank, it will mix with the tank water and the pH will quickly settle, and your water should be well buffered. Doesn't bother my fish at all.

If your pH stays at 7, why do you need to buffer it? Perhaps the fry deaths are due to something else?

How long do you leave the water before you test it? Do you aerate it for say 24 hours to let the pH stabilise?

I also wonder why you need an RO unit with such nice soft tapwater?

AndrewC · Post by **AndrewC** » 25 Apr 2008, 17:36

Racoll
Water out of my tap reads; ph7.8, kh1, gh1, and tds is either 90 or 100, after airaiting and preheating overnight it then reads; ph7.0, kh 1, gh1, and tds of 90 or 100.
If i check any of my tanks a few days after water changes, they measure ph7.0, kh 1, gh1 and the lowest readings i have seen for any of my tanks is 6.8.

My tap water is full of phosphates, it reads the maximum on the Hagen phosphate test kit and i have recently learned, too much phosphate in your water long term, is bad for a fishes health, which is one reason i got the ro unit.
Adults and most of my fry do well in my tap water, such as my current L333 fry (only had the odd random death with them), and most of my previous fry have done alright.
Last year with my first zebra fry, i had a few with deformed fins and a few snub noses, the deformed fins i think, may have been a water quality issue at some point, the snub noses may have been a poor male at hatching eggs, i have already changed the male with the breeding female and his fry are too young yet to see how they are devolping.
I am having trouble with cory fry, after hatching them and rearing them in a tub for a month or so, when i put them into a growout tank, most of them die.
These are another reason i got a ro unit.

Right enough after writing and reading this, i think i will be getting some pea gravel for some grow out tanks which can get a good sypthon each water change.

I haven't seen any other fishkeepers who keep their fish in such low kh water, most times i read another fishkeepers water stats, they have slightly acidic or just above neutral water with some kh buffering, and when i read up on kh, it says you should always have a basic buffering of at least three, if not more.
I thought the ro unit would let me have water that didn't have anything in it that was detrememtal to my fish that water companys might use, and finally have slightly acidic water but also have some buffering, but it isn't working out like that, i am back to what happened with my tap water if i tried to raise the kh to 3, the ph goes through the roof.

The water that comes out of my ro unit and has 5 teaspoons of RO Right added to it (50g tub), reads; ph 6.8, kh1, gh1, tds 85.
Do you think it would be risky keeping my fish in such soft water, or, as long as i keep up regular water changes, i should be fine ?
And do you think my fry will be all right raised in such water, or am i better increasing the kh of the fry water to a kh of 2, which gives me a ph of 7.6 ?

I usually wait half an hour after altering the water before measuring it.
I will have a read of the article tonight, did you write it ?

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 25 Apr 2008, 17:39

Racoll,

I use discarded oyster & mussel shells. They dissolve over years, used in the right quanity don't take the pH above 6 but avoid pH crashes IME.

Jools

AndrewC · Post by **AndrewC** » 25 Apr 2008, 18:08

Are these Oyster Sheels http://www.tropicalseashells.co.uk/blac ... -1180.html what is being taked about ?

If you aren't using sump filtration, do you just keep them in your storage tub ?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Apr 2008, 19:02

I will have a read of the article tonight, did you write it ?

I did.

My tap water is full of phosphates

This would explain why your tank's pH is not falling below 7, as phosphates are powerful buffer.

My plec tank is at KH 1.68 and the pH is 6.8 and stable. I think you'll find a KH of 3 might be a bit high to get a pH under 7. There is no problem with maintaining a tank under a KH of 3, but you must be regular with the water changes to replenish the levels. Leave the tank for a month without a change and pH might well dip.

I thought the ro unit would let me have water that didn't have anything in it that was detrememtal to my fish that water companys might use, and finally have slightly acidic water but also have some buffering, but it isn't working out like that

An RO unit removes everything from the water, so you will need to use a bit of KH and GH to get it back to a safer level.

My advice is to mix up your water to a KH of 1-2. Ignore the readings when you mix up the water, just test the tank 24h after a water change. pH too high, just add a bit less pH stable at the next change. A digital pH meter might be a good investment.

You could also try Jools' technique.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 25 Apr 2008, 20:22

I would take racoll's advice about using electronic meters whenever you are trying to maintain an aquarium with water with a KH of 3 or less. It is so easy for the pH to drop precipitously with low buffering content but for breeding certain fish it is necessary to work with extremely low hardness and pH as low as 3.5 to 4.0. Electronic meters make frequent checking much easier and easy equates with using. Colormetric tests are tedious enough to discourage frequent checking of the trend the water is changing, at least for those as lazy as me.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 25 Apr 2008, 20:29

AndrewC wrote:Are these Oyster shells http://www.tropicalseashells.co.uk/blac ... -1180.html what is being talked about ?

No, just the common ones you eat. Crassostrea gigas I think.

Jools

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Apr 2008, 21:24

Crassostrea gigas I think

Ostrea edulis I think you'll find

A local fishmonger should give you some shells for nowt, unless you want you buy them alive and eat their foul contents

AndrewC · Post by **AndrewC** » 25 Apr 2008, 21:43

Thanks All

My plec tank is at KH 1.68 and the pH is 6.8 and stable. I think you'll find a KH of 3 might be a bit high to get a pH under 7.

I am going to stick with a low kh, after adding the ro right, if i add 3/4 a teaspoon of ph stable, it will give my water a ph of 7.2 and a kh of 1.5 (the ph is halfway between kh1 and kh2, from my tests so far), and keep up my 40% to 50% weekly water changes, plus cleaning poo daily and topping up.
I realise if i don't keep up the weekly water changes, the ph will start dropping in my tanks.

I have a Hanna HI-98127 (infact it's my third) http://www.hannainst.co.uk/acatalog/HI_ ... dents.html, and a handheld Hanna tds meter (use it if i am doing a rainy season).
But find handheld ph meters a pain, i do a two point calibration each time using ph7.01 and ph 4.01 calibration solutions, and use it a lot when i first get it, but if i get into a routine and know the exact amounts i am adding to the storage tanks for water changes, it can sit on the shelf for a while, but then if i try to use it again, it can give me wonky readings even after calibrating again, so i always keep a test tube ph kit handy so if i think i have left it lying for too long, i can use the ph test tube kit, as i am doing just now.
I have tried some storage solution in the lid of the meter, but it can be dry by the time i use it again, do they have to be used weekly for them not to wander ?

The only thing i don't like the sound of with the oyster shells is, i use a quite a lot of water each week, infact a bit each day, and oyster shells sound like they should be used directly in your tank, where they will slowly leach buffering into the tank through time, rather than in a storage tank, whereas i am wanting the water to be right in my storage tanks before using, so i know what the water is like in my tanks.
Or i am looking at oyster shells the wrong way ?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Apr 2008, 23:32

Is the RO unit new by any chance? What's the pH of the neat RO water?

I have tried some storage solution in the lid of the meter, but it can be dry by the time i use it again, do they have to be used weekly for them not to wander ?

I think this is why it is drifting. I have the same model. They aren't supposed to be allowed to dry out. I keep mine in tapwater, and I fill the end cap with the water and stand it upright during storage in a jar. This way it won't leak, and the probe stays wet. I only calibrate mine once every couple of months, and its only slightly out.

AndrewC · Post by **AndrewC** » 26 Apr 2008, 01:55

The ro unit is a week old, i didn't get D.I fitted to it as i didn't see the need for it with freshwater, the unit is from RO Man.
The water straight from the unit (after discarding 10g) was; ph pen - 5.5 / ph test kit - 6.0, kh - 0, gh - 0, and a tds of 5.
My pump dosn't empty the storage tank fully, usually 1" or so of water left in it, but i don't think it affects new ro water much when i fill the tub back up.

Always read it is best to have sand in a pleco tank, but do you think a thin layer of pea gravel would be alright, more for some grow out tanks, as i know the substrate gets a good clean when syphoning with a python ?

I use a A.P.I. test kit for kh, what test kit do you use to get a reading of 1.68 ?

Why dos my waters ph shoot up so much when i try to buffer it, when i read of people who have reasonably soft water but decent buffering ?

Does anyone use a buffer on their pleco tanks

Does anyone use a buffer on their pleco tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

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Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

Re: Does anyone use a buffer on their pl*co tanks

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