L204, what's necessary (or not) for spawniing?

[toddnbecka]

This will be my first attempt at spawning anything other than livebearers or cichlids, so I figured a species that isn't particular about water chemistry in general would be a good start. The fact that the male is very protective of the eggs doesn't strike me as a bad thing either. So what have you folks who have successfully spawned and raised fry learned about these critters? My first thought is to get 1m/3f, feed them a good diet in a tank with plenty of driftwood and several caves, and do regular water changes. The pH will be ~7.6, basically fresh tap water, aside from the effects of the driftwood and biological activity that may lower it a bit. I do have an r/o unit on hand if necessary, but I haven't hooked it up yet. After trying (unsucessfully) to adjust the water chemistry with chemicals, I'm a bit leery of "fixing something that ain't broke" if it isn't actually necessary. Please help me out, I really don't want to kill the babies (assuming there ARE any) through ignorance...

[racoll]

Hello.

While I do not profess to be any expert on spawning Panaque spp., I do own three Panaque L204 with the eventual goal of getting them to breed.

As its your first attempt with breeding loricariids, I would recommend you try something a bit easier to start with, such as some Ancistrus spp. Most of the dwarf Panaque have been bred, but not very frequently.

You may become a bit frustrated and disheartened by trying a tricky species to start with. This happened to me when I set up a tank to breed Hypancistrus L262. Rearing lots of Ancistrus successfully will also give you plenty of practice with rearing fry and you will learn many lessons that will come in useful with the trickier spp.

You will need an astonishing amount of patience to breed any loricariid, and the saying "a watched pot never boils" very often comes to mind. Think years rather than months, especially if you buy juvenile fish.

If you do want to try however, don't let me stop you.

Here's what I would do....

You probably won't be able to find sexable adult fish in your local store, so buy about 5 subadults and then trade when they are mature enough to sex (this could take a couple of years!)

You will need a decent size tank, preferably wider than it is high, with a really heavy duty, oversized external power filter (e.g. the Fluval FX5) as these fish produce ridiculous amounts of sawdust/crap.

Your tapwater is fine, and I would keep them around 28C, well aerated with a good circulation and regular large water changes. Decorate with loads of driftwood, but I would definitely collect some softwood for them to eat, as they much prefer this to shop bought hardwood. I use dead birch that I collected, but a variety of other fish safe species is good too.

Although they have been bred in stone caves, I suspect it may be easier to get them to spawn in a wood cave, like in nature. Maybe drill out a big bit of driftwood?

Although they really only need wood, I would supplement with lots of veggies and the odd algae wafer. Wait (!) until they are in prime breeding condition, and then try the regular cooler water changes with RO to simulate the breeding season (a la regular ancistrine breeding techniques). Many fish also only breed at certain times of the year (they must have some internal clock), so be aware of this.

I hope has helped. Have a read of these spawning accounts of dwarf Panaque - much will apply to L204.

http://planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/sh ... cle_id=354

http://planetcatfish.com/shanesworld/sh ... cle_id=355

http://planetcatfish.com/cotm/cotm.php?article_id=179

[apistomaster]

I bought eight juvenile Panaque sp L204 two years ago. I ended up with many males which I got rid of and now also have a trio which I am "patiently"(LOL) for my first spawn. This species does not need soft acid water based on all the info I've read about breeding this species but as racoll said, there is never knowing which one will spawn first if you are working with several different species at the same time.
I expected my Hypancistrus L260 would be my first species but the Peckoltia sp L134 spawned several times in quick succession but have switched off for no particular reason that I can determine.

[toddnbecka]

I'm looking to get 5"+ fish from an online pleco dealer. Hopefully they'll be properly sexed, and I won't have to wait several years for them to mature.
What is the best ratio for spawning? Is it a good idea to have 2 males with several females?
Would a 30 long (100 liter accounting for gravel bed, etc) be a suitable size tank? Currently set up with an UG filter plate powered by an aquaclear 50 powerhead (fairly strong current) and 2 air-driven sponge filters. I did buy a 300 gph hob filter for the tank, but it's too close to the wall to fit. The tank/stand can be moved out if necessary, or as an alternative I have a spare fluval 305 canister filter handy.
If a larger tank is necessary, I do have 2 75's waiting to be set up. They are old tanks w/out center braces on the top frame, bought used, and need to be filled/tested for leaks. I don't expect any problems though, they're all glass/silicone.

[racoll]

What is the best ratio for spawning? Is it a good idea to have 2 males with several females?

I would copy what Janne did (in the Shane's World article) when he bred them, with 1 male and 2-3 females. Perhaps more males would work, or perhaps it wouldn't, but I would stick to what has worked before. They are pretty aggressive as far as plecs go, so keep an eye out for that.

Would a 30 long (100 liter accounting for gravel bed, etc) be a suitable size tank?

I would go with the 75g (due to aggression and water volume), with as many canister filters as will fit on the tank. I don't think an undergravel filter would work as the massive accumulation of sawdust and crap could rapidly block and foul the substrate. Better to have a 1cm layer of sand.

[toddnbecka]

Filtration isn't an issue on the 75, I have a couple of old aquaclear 500's that can be used.

[apistomaster]

I concur with racoll's advice to have a minimal layer of substrate. This will make keeping their tank clean easier. A group of L204 given a pile of wood results in a great deal of waste products. "Sawdust" being a major component of that waste. As he suggested earlier, I plan to replace conventional slate breeding caves with wood with bored holes to provide potential spawning sites. The fry, if we are lucky, do grow much better if they have wood in their diet from the beginning.