I can't keep them alive...

[Questor]

I'm having a dreadful time trying to get a bushynose. I simply cannot seem to keep one alive. I've purchased nice healthy ones (all youngsters), from several sources so its not the quality of the fish. They always freak out when I introduce them to my tank: get twitchy, start darting to the surface for gulps of air, then start clinging to the waterline with their noses out of the water. They usually die within 48 hours. I've been putting them into a 2 year established 10 gallon that I do use for quarantine and hospitalization. No other fish seems to have any problem. When I know I'm going to "try" a pleco, I try to ensure that my water parameters match where they're coming from in terms of ph, hardness and temperature. No other fish in the tank at the time I try...no salt added to the water. Nothing seems to work. All my tests come up good. No ammonia before or after adding the plecos. No nitrites, low nitrates. There's nothing weird in terms of decor that could be leaching toxins. I'm on well water (very good well water), so no chlorines. I'm ready to tear my hair out trying to figure this out. Its pretty obvious its something to do with my water, but what??? What causes this type of behaviour? I'm tired of murdering these poor little guys. Has anyone got any ideas?

[Haavard Stoere]

Your 10 gallon quarantine tank is obviously not working. Try to use a bigger tank with lots of circulation and one or two large canister filters. I use air diffusers on my circulation pumps and canister filter outlets. The water is full of tiny bubbles at all times, and therefore the fish never surfaces for air. I only turn the air of for photography

[drpleco]

what happens when you quarantine other kinds of fish?

If you can get BN's from a private breeder that won't need to be quarantined - that would circumvent the problem. BUT, then you wouldn't know what was wrong - for future reference.

It really sounds like a chlorine poisoning kind of behavior - and/or some other kind of poisoning.

[SOBERKITTY]

Have you tried treating the water w/ a dechlorinator just to eliminate the possibility?

[Fish Soup]

I'm thinking pH shock. Have you tested their "home" water against your tank? Have any numbers for us?


Don

[Birger]

Have you ever had your water tested beyond the usual basic tests....talking about for minerals and anything else that could be in the water
I find young ancistrus to be sensitive to impurities in the water but I am thinking whatever it is these fish are reacting to is in your well water which is also what you yourself are drinking, using for cooking, etc.

Do you add anything like softeners to your well water for household use?

The idea stated above of using a conditioner is simple but a good suggestion and I would try putting one(ancistrus) in one of your other established tanks...I know about the reasons for quarantining but in this case I would risk it...especially if you could get one from a reliable source.

Oh...and Welcome to PlanetCatfish!!

Birger

[Bigpig]

It does sound like a problem with your water.
Perhaps there is something that does not show up on your tests.
It might be an idea to acclimatise your fish to the tank water very slowly. Put the new fish, with the water that It came in, into a smallish container. Then very slowly add water from the tank, you can do this using an airline, I use a turkey baister. Add the tank water for perhaps 40 mins, then net the fish out and put it into the tank.
It is often the shock of the change in water that upsets the fish.

[Carp37]

I've recently started keeping fish again (last June) after 17 years when I couldn't have my tanks set up. Back in the late 80s and early 90s, I also couldn't keep bristlenose alive, whereas now they seem to thrive pretty well. With me I'm pretty sure it was high nitrates they couldn't cope with, as I've taken to doing 40% water changes in most of my tanks about every 5 days, rather than the oftne recommended 25% per week or fortnight.

If they're dying within 2 days nitrates doesn't seem like the problem though, although it is likely to be down to water quality or sick fish bought in the first place (I've had two plecs die on me in less than 48 hours in the past, but if they get through the first 3 days I know they're going to be fine...).

[MatsP]

I'm with "problem with the water". In my experience, there is very little that kills a bristlenose quickly. They are very resilliant to water quality issues in general, and tolerate low oxygen levels well [I'm assuming we're talking regular

Ancistrus sp(3)

].

Check your water for nitrite, ammonia etc. Also, if you can get a more detailed test on minerals and such, that would certainly be able to tell us more.

Is your water hard or soft?

--
Mats

[Questor]

I've not tried water conditioners. Guess it couldn't hurt, although I'm positive there is no chlorine. I've also tried the slow acclimatizing method - dripping my water into their bag slowly. Didn't help. I've tried purchasing from several sources, including some very good private breeders. Its definitely not the fish. PH shock was my best guess too. The last couple of times I've tried, I've asked the seller what their ph is and have even tested the bag water and tried to match mine as close as I can...but usually the ph is pretty close anyway. Lowering the PH isn't difficult, but the only way I know to raise the ph is to add salts etc...not pleco friendly. The 10 gallon is well filtered with an AC and also has an air stone - so good in terms of circulation I think. I keep the temp at about 76. I have used the tank to treat sick or injured fish - successfully. I can put a sick/weak fish in there and they're fine and recover. However, admittedly, when I do do this, I usually nearly drain the 10 gallon and fill it with water from my main tank so the water is basically identical to where they came from. I always have a fish of some sort in there, to keep the tank cycled...but remove it when "trying a pleco".

My tap water generally has a ph of about 7.0 to 7.5 (depending on time of year). GH is 100 and KH is 80. Nitrates are usually well within good parameters, generally between 10-20. Sometimes higher in the dead of winter or after a heavy summer rain, so I'm careful when I do water changes. No ammonia, no nitrites. We're on an artesian well - tested at least twice a year. I have not however, ever had it specifically tested for specific minerals. What would I ask for?

The well water parameters are too low for my hap/peacock tank so for it I do add salt/epsom salt/baking soda. I keep the parameters of my main tank at: ph 8; No2 0; No3 15-20; GH 240; KH 150-170. I don't think I could throw any BN directly in there. He'd keel over for sure without properly acclimatizing him...not to mention the ones I've been able to get my hands on are all a wee bit small - their size alone would put them at risk with my haps/peacocks.

The last fellow I got some bn's from has offered to give me 5 gallons of his water to try acclimatizing them that way? Drain 50-75% of my water, and put his 5 gallons in my 10 gallon? Or set up my filter/heater on the 5 gallon bucket and slowly start adding my water???

[Barbie]

First I would get a meter and check to see if perhaps your heater is leaking stray voltage. Some people tolerate a pretty good current without noticing it but the fish most certainly do. I've run into that a few times lately with tanks.

With that said, I'd probably take all of the water out of the tank again and use water from your main tank. It sounds like you've got some sort of pollutant building up over time. Don't bother so much with trying to match the parameters of the water the fish came out of, especially if you're bumping the pH down. Then you're just taking the risk that the fish has to ride out swings in pH. He's way better off just slowly being acclimated into the conditions he's going to stay in anyway. Then he only has to deal with the parameters changing one time. Healthy fish have no problem handling that.

Barbie

[apistomaster]

A healthy bushy nose is a hard catfish to kill unless it is very weak when you bought it.
Never buy them unless they have full bellies. Any concavity indicates a long period of starvation. These fish often die soon after a move. Make them feed the bushy nose a piece of algae wafer before you buy from your source. If they aren't eating well then don't buy them. Also avoid very small specimens. Try to buy them as close to two inches as possible. Those that are only 1-1/4 inch or less are easily starved because they are still very much in a rapid growth stage.

[Questor]

A healthy bushy nose is a hard catfish to kill unless it is very weak when you bought it.

Everyone keeps telling me this, but boy, it sure hasn't been my experience. If this were true, how can it be that I've tried on (probably) a dozen occassions, with varying conditions (trying this, trying that) with fish from different sources and still be unsuccessful? And the starvation thing would not explain their immediate strange behaviour. True, I have only bought youngsters, but they've always been a good 2 inches and appeared to be very plump and healthy looking. Because of my troubles, I've made a point to ensure that I get nice, healthy specimens - and then feel so guilty that I've killed them! I've tried regular browns and albinos.

First I would get a meter and check to see if perhaps your heater is leaking stray voltage.

Would this not affect other fish equally? I just took out an ill (now recovered) fish from the same tank and prior to that it held a holding female and her fry till they were 1/2" in size? Or are plecos a little more sensitive to this??? Its certainly one thing that I hadn't considered. What kind of meter would I use - a regular voltage meter like the one my hubby has in the garage?

I'd probably take all of the water out of the tank again and use water from your main tank. It sounds like you've got some sort of pollutant building up over time.

I'm not sure I understand you here, about the pollutants building up? If I'm doing water changes? Same water as is used in the big tank, albeit without the buffers? I'm pretty certain I've already tried this too, but might be worth trying again.

Don't bother so much with trying to match the parameters of the water the fish came out of, especially if you're bumping the pH down. Then you're just taking the risk that the fish has to ride out swings in pH. He's way better off just slowly being acclimated into the conditions he's going to stay in anyway. Then he only has to deal with the parameters changing one time. Healthy fish have no problem handling that.

Isn't taking a young fish that's in a ph of 7 and putting him straight into a ph of 8 a sure-fire way to kill it? How is this slowly acclimating him? Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I already did try that , which is one of the things that convinced me it was the salts in the water that made them suffer.

I hope I'm not sounding contrary here folks. I certainly don't mean to be. I'm very appreciative of any and all suggestions. I'm sure you can begin to understand my frustration at this point. I feel like I've tried just about everything - short of setting up a new tank (hubby will kill ME! LOL!) or filling the tank with someone else's water (most likely my next plan!). I'm hoping someone comes up with something that I haven't already considered/tried. So far the only things are A) the stray voltage thing - which I'll definitely look into, and B) possibly some sort of contaminant in my water that bothers plecos but not other fish? How I'd determine this, I've no idea. ??

[Barbie]

My water here has parameters very similar to yours. I keep discus in my tap water, with no problem, and also a wild moba frontosa colony that spawns regularly. I acclimate all fish coming in to plain tap, with the only exceptions of chocolate gourami's and altum angels. Bristlenose plecos would definitely not be anywhere near their sensitivity class. Your description screams that there's something in the water that the fish don't like. It's entirely possible that whatever has built up in the main tank slowly over time, has allowed your fish to acclimate to it. Then when you add new fish, it's stressing them badly. Stray voltage might potentially be bothering plecos more, but it's hard to tell.

With that all said, I have a dear friend that can raise celestial pearl danios, rainbows, and all sorts of difficult to keep fish, but he's a bristlenose pleco killing machine. We still can't figure out why, and he's on the same water I'm on!

Barbie

[danishcatfish]

Lak of desolved oxygen in the water is my guess. I have a small tank where this happens if I have to many fish in it.

/Svend

[jc]

I had similar problems with shrimps, but that was due to the tank temperature...

[Carp37]

It might be an idea to acclimatise your fish to the tank water very slowly. Put the new fish, with the water that It came in, into a smallish container. Then very slowly add water from the tank, you can do this using an airline, I use a turkey baister. Add the tank water for perhaps 40 mins, then net the fish out and put it into the tank.
It is often the shock of the change in water that upsets the fish.

I agree with using a container (I use a bucket, but that's not ideal for plecs!) to acclimate the fish. I remember reading an article by David Sands over 20 years ago that was saying not to float catfish (especially callichthyids and loricariids) when acclimating as it stresses them disproportionately to other fish, but I can't remember the reasoning behind it . However, this time round I'm having much better fish survival using buckets to slowly drip-feed water into, than floating fish- where possible I acclimate all my fish in containers rather than in bags.

[Questor]

Your description screams that there's something in the water that the fish don't like.

Agree totally!

It's entirely possible that whatever has built up in the main tank slowly over time, has allowed your fish to acclimate to it. Then when you add new fish, it's stressing them badly.
Barbie

Nope, wrong tack. I'm not adding the pleco's to my main tank (although I did try that once as well, with the same reaction). I'm starting them in a 10 gallon, which, because of its size and substrate (tahitian moon sand...shows every crumb of leftover food/poop), tends to get more frequent water changes - usually once a week, depending on what's in there, and usually ~20% at a time.

With that all said, I have a dear friend..., but he's a bristlenose pl*co killing machine. We still can't figure out why

I guess there's some comfort that I'm not the only one!

Lak of desolved oxygen in the water is my guess. I have a small tank where this happens if I have to many fish in it.

No other fish in the tank when I try the plecos (I wanted to ensure it was not some sort aggression thing). And I have both my filter and and airstone going in there. And other fish (when they ARE in there), don't seem to have any problems.

I agree with using a container (I use a bucket, but that's not ideal for plecs!) to acclimate the fish.

Well, that was sort of my next thought. But why not a bucket??? The last fellow I bought some (beautiful) plecs from, offered to give me 5 gallons of his water. So I was thinking to:

-drain and discard at least 3/4 of the water from my 10 gallon;
-put in his 5 gallons (bring the temp up of course)
-use that combined water (3/4 his, 1/4 mine) to slow drip about 1/2 (or more?) into a pail containing the plecos.
-After a few hours, transfer the bucket water and then the plecos back to the tank.

I'd go with 100% his water, but I know my filter won't work with the tank just half full. I could augment his water with fresh well water instead...or would I be better sticking with my tank water?

After that I'd acclimate them (hopefully) to my water by doing my water changes very slowly.... Perhaps 10% once a week????

Thoughts on this???

[Carp37]

I agree with using a container (I use a bucket, but that's not ideal for plecs!) to acclimate the fish.

Well, that was sort of my next thought. But why not a bucket????

The only reason a bucket's a bad idea is loricariids stick steadfastly to the bucket so are really difficult to coax back out of the bucket again!

[Barbie]

Plecos make quite a bit of waste. I have tanks that I do 80% water changes on when I'm raising Ancistrus. 10% a week in a 10 gallon tank is probably at least part of the problem, IMO. They'll handle the change in water parameters WAY better than they're going to handle the build up of wastes.

Barbie

[WhitePine]

I have a well and have done some research into ground water and well problems in my area. so I did a google search for your area and came up with one possibilty. Your area had a well system contaminted with Trichloroethylene (TCE). It is a solvent for removing grease from metal and textiles. I don't know how close you are to the contaminated area. You might try contacting county/city offficials and find out more information about well problems in your area. I got great information from my local county health department.

Cheers, Whitepine

[racoll]

What other fish have been kept in your 10g, and how long ago?

Are your test kits definitely working? I have had dud kits that give a false negative reading.

[Questor]

The only reason a bucket's a bad idea is loricariids stick steadfastly to the bucket so are really difficult to coax back out of the bucket again!

Ah, gotcha!

10% a week in a 10 gallon tank is probably at least part of the problem, IMO. They'll handle the change in water parameters WAY better than they're going to handle the build up of wastes.Barbie

This was just a proposal - not what I have been doing in the past. Seems like I'd have a bit of a quandry then, how can allcimate them slowly but still keep their water fresh?

What other fish have been kept in your 10g, and how long ago?
Are your test kits definitely working? I have had dud kits that give a false negative reading.

Yeah, my test kits are fine (have verified the results with my LFS). I have a smallish hap in there right now (to keep it cycled). Prior to that was a sick hap, who recovered. Sand cleaning and water changes prior to housing the healthy hap. He seems happy as a clam in there all by himself - no aggression, no fighting for food - probably thinks he's gone to fishy heaven - except for the fact he has no girlfriend.

Your area had a well system contaminted with Trichloroethylene (TCE). It is a solvent for removing grease from metal and textiles. I don't know how close you are to the contaminated area. Cheers, Whitepine

Thanks for going that extra bit Whitepine! I believe you are referring to the community well contamination in Penetang about 12-15 years back??? - was quite a scandal in our community at the time! This was one of the main wells serving the community. However, I'm 13 kilometers away from that area - and separated by a good few miles of bay inbetween - so no possible way of any of that contaminate reaching our own private well - not near any agricultural area either - so no real possibility of any kind of toxic run off that I can think of. However, my husband has suggested we take our water in to have it retested and at that time we'll speak to them to see if we can't get some sort of detailed report about specific minerals, contaminants, etc.

All this feedback is terrific. I know I'll get to the bottom of this sooner or later!

[Bas Pels]

all by himself - no aggression, no fighting for food - probably thinks he's gone to fishy heaven - except for the fact he has no girlfriend.

Perhaps that does define heaven?

[apistomaster]

There is little to be gained from slow acclimation of healthy BN to to new water; they are just not that delicate.