Comoensis or Tourei ?

[piggy4]

Are the pics of the small S.Comoensis on the cat-elog ,genuine Comoensis ? only i have some of these fish and i always thought they were S.Tourei ! only as mine have grown their dorsal fins have that rounded appearance ,aka Tourei ,wheras the pic of an adult Comoensis has a tall pointy looking dorsal ?

[Birger]

What are the lenghts of your fish as there is a size difference in adult sizes according to the literature
Have you had them long enough to grow them to adult size?

I could be wrong but to me it looks like image # 2 in the CateLog does not even belong with comoensis
Difference in adipose fin-much larger
filament on the dorsal
shape of humeral process

Birger

[Richard B]

I agree with Birger that the 2nd photo looks totally wrong when included in the rest of the photos & would probably be a totally separate species. To accurately distinguish between small specimens you'd have to read the scientific descriptions of both species - particularly if one was compared to the other - collecting locallity would probably help as well. A juvenille of any species could alter quite drastically when it is an adult

[piggy4]

Hi all, the fish i have are ranging from about 3 to 5 inches ! i get the feeling that Comoensis is not really known ? the only problem here is that Tourei seems to be a bit enigmatic also ! i will try to get my mate to take a few pics of my fish , might just help a bit ?

[Richard B]

pictures would indeed be of benefit, after all a picture paints a thousand words...

[MatsP]

I agree that Picture 2 seems a bit out of place - but I'm by no means sure.

S. comoensis is a fairly recently described species, so one could expect a decent description, compared to the fish that got described 100-200 years ago.

Edit: S. tourei is also fairly recently described, 1962, so it should also have a decent description.

From the origin of BOTH of these fish, I don't think they are very frequent imports.

--
Mats

[Birger]

the fish i have are ranging from about 3 to 5 inches

You are already at the top range for tourei at 3 inch SL...there are no discrepancies when it comes to size in the literature so it should be correct

Birger

[piggy4]

Yeah i know that would be roundabout the size for Tourei ! strangely i got 10 of these and they have all grown differently , i.e. they range from 3 to 5 inches , even though they were all purchased at roughly the same time !

[MatsP]

Different growth in different species isn't entirely unusual, particularly as many fish can have a "ranking order", where one is the dominant, and the others are subdominant. The dominant fish will be the one growing fastest, because it gets the first pick of the foods, etc.

--
Mats

[Birger]

strangely i got 10 of these and they have all grown differently , i.e. they range from 3 to 5 inches ,

A group of ten...good score
As Mats said I am not surprised at different growth either
I would be interested to see pictures of these

Birger

[Birger]

tourei
http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/getthumbn ... get=131137

comoensis
http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/getthumbn ... get=136103

[MatsP]

Judging by the acsi pictures, the longer dorsal belongs to S. comoensis...

[piggy4]

I would say mine are more akin to Tourei than Comoensis ! certainly judging by those preserved specimens , its just that when they were younger they had very similar colours to the youngsters depicted here on the cat-elog ! though having said that i dont know of any reliable pics of Tourei ! perhaps similar looking to Comoensis when young ? gorgeous looking .

[caudalis]

I have read that comoensis goes through a big morphlogical change as it grows.
Do these help?

http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl ... /16420.pdf

http://zipcodezoo.com/Animals/S/Synodon ... oensis.asp

[piggy4]

Hi Caudalis , thanks for that , yeah i'd say it pretty much rules my fish out of the Comoensis tag ! i strongly feel they could be Tourei , when younger my fish didnt half look like the supposed young Comoensis on the cat-elog here at Planetcatfish . i dont think there are any reliable pics of Tourei ?

[Birger]

I have read that comoensis goes through a big morphlogical change as it grows.
Do these help?

http://horizon.documentation.ird.fr/exl ... /16420.pdf

That answers the questions on the mystery picture, that is quite a change

Birger

[mickthefish]

hi all
piggy4 brought these syno's for me to photograph in the hope that you can confirm which syno they are.






cheers all
mick
i hope the pics come up.

[The.Dark.One]

Thats easy piggy, Synodontis czechrepublicensis

[mickthefish]

don't get piggy4 going mate.
these were bought a good few years ago at KKC in Hull.

lousey bugger TDO
micky

[piggy4]

I tell you there's no way these are hybrids ! now come on one be serious .
A big thanks to Mick , these arent the easiest fish to take pics of , extreemly shy and nervous , all they did was clamp their fins
I think they are possibly Tourei or even Koensis , thats my guess

[The.Dark.One]

Calm down calm down piggy! Onny kiddin mi old mucker! They do look like wild fish.

Whilst at first glance they look a bit like a tourei, there are a few issues that make me think they are not:

The maxillary barbels on your fish dont look kike they have short membranes near the basal half, whereas in tourei they have
The humeral process in your fish looks too short and upturned
The adipose fin looks to have too long a base in your fish

I dont think they are koensis either; for one the humeral process is wrong.

I've looked at all species of Synos that are supposed to be valid and they dont appear to match any of them.

Here are the original drawings from the description of tourei.



There is also a very poorly copied photo of the juvenile (not reproduced here) and it looks very distinctively patterned, with a dark base and light vermiculations.

[Birger]

The maxillary barbels on your fish dont look kike they have short membranes near the basal half, whereas in tourei they have
The humeral process in your fish looks too short and upturned
The adipose fin looks to have too long a base in your fish

I agree with the second and third, but with the first I am trying to understand it...I understand maxillary barbels and basal half but I am trying to figure out or see where these membranes would be exactly if they were there...is there a way to explain......please excuse my lack of understanding...maybe I just can't see for looking

Birger

[The.Dark.One]

No problems Birger.

Look on the drawing I have posted, the membranes are the bits shaded black on the long barbels.

[piggy4]

Hi Darkone, i kinda agree which i guess means i kinda disagree i've got ten of these , though i bow to your superior knowledge , i'd like to have pics taken of each individual to see if there are any differences , would they all be the same or would there be little differences on each fish the drawings you show me are very close to my fish , and as youngsters they had those same markings also !
On the cat-elog the pics that are supposed to be young Comoensis , is there any remote chance they could be young Tourei my fish looked so close when they were young just had a look at the drawings from Polls book , here on the cat-elog they do look pretty close to my fish

[piggy4]

Hi Darkone , just been looking at the pics of Waterloti on cat-elog and the mask on the pic by M.Smith 4th one on the top looks different to the others pictured is the mask method a 100% acurate in fairness the M.Smith pic lookes closest to preserved specimen on the Koensis thread

[The.Dark.One]

The humeral process isnt 100% reliable on its own. As the fish grows it can slightly change and there can be some slight variation. However, in adults it is usually quite constant. If you use it in conjunction with other things like I have done (teeth can also be a good guide but some species have similar ones) you can usually rule in or out a species. The issue with the waterloti is that there are at least two different but very similar fish that are being labelled as waterloti so you can't really cite that as an example.

The Dave Rinaldo pic on the cat e log labelled as comoensis does look a bit like a tourei, but the young of these two species are similar looking.

Here is the poor photo of the juvenile tourei.



Although your fish are close to tourei, I still do not think they are tourei.

[piggy4]

Thanks for the debate Darkone , very interesting stuff !

[yorkshiredavid]

Hey Lads
Nice debate this one. See you at the weekend?
Regards yorkshiredavid

[piggy4]

Is that the Yorkshire pudding himself Hi David

[yorkshiredavid]

Hey piggy
You cheeky Lancashire person (you are not young enough to be called a lad ha ha ha). Anyway I think that for your cheek you will have to dip your hand into your pocket at the weekend and purchase a copy of Issue 1 of The Aquarium Gazette. What do you think Dark One?
See you soon.
Regards David