L200 fin shape and sex

[drpleco]

Is there finally a consensus on L200 high fin vs. short fin? I'm looking to start a group and want to know whether or not I should mix fin types. I'd love to have some high fins, but not if that would compromise the gene pool for my breeding attempt.

So what do the different fin types mean? Can someone enlighten me please? Thanks!!

Andy

[Haavard Stoere]

They are different species altogether.

Hi fin is Baryancistrus dematoides. The "normal" one is Hemiancistrus subviridis. Take a look in the cat-elog at the two different species.

[drpleco]

I was under the impression that that wasn't conclusive yet.

[Haavard Stoere]

I was under the impression that that wasn't conclusive yet.

It is fairly conclusive. This is male and female of Hemiancistrus subvividis. Female left, male right. Notice the clubshape of the pectoral fins of the male.

[drpleco]

Thanks!! And nice picture!!

[Haavard Stoere]

Thanks!! And nice picture!!

I just love these two species. The "hifin" is definetely less available, and maybee more attractive in its shape. The colors of the lofin is far stronger though. Therefore I love both.

The thing about Cat-eLog, good books, fishbase and everything else is to look twice, and sometimes twenty times at the same fish and information. Some information must settle several times in our brain before we can make sence of it all. At least my brain needs a lot of repetitions along each subject.

[Birger]

The thing about Cat-eLog, good books, fishbase and everything else is to look twice, and sometimes twenty times at the same fish and information. Some information must settle several times in our brain before we can make sence of it all. At least my brain needs a lot of repetitions along each subject.

You are not alone...this sounds like you are describing me

Birger

[Haavard Stoere]

The thing about Cat-eLog, good books, fishbase and everything else is to look twice, and sometimes twenty times at the same fish and information. Some information must settle several times in our brain before we can make sence of it all. At least my brain needs a lot of repetitions along each subject.

You are not alone...this sounds like you are describing me

Birger

Birger sounds very norwegian....
Anyway... I definetely feel it is an important issue... Not looking twice, but several times... It makes the pieces fall into place(or not). Our inferior brains needs repetition.... We are after all not elephants.

[DaveT]

Hi

Sorry to drag up an old post, im just looking for a little more clarification, i believe what Haavard is saying about the hi fin and lo fin being different fish (purely on that that hes had eggs which should be pretty conclusive, gratz by the way, hope its going well).

My question is if the hi/lo fins differentiate between the hemi and the bary species, what difference does it make about the make up of the Epidose fin being connected to teh dorsal (sorry i cant remember my source on this one), i read somewhere that if the dorsal and epidose were connected then it was a bary, while not connected was a hemi.

I ask this as i have 2 of these fish, 1 hi fin and 1 low, neither of which have 'connected fins' which led me to believe that i possibly had 2 of the same species, now after reading this thread im confused again. Is there a third similar species involved aswell?

im not likely to breed so doesnt really impact me either way,i just like to know these things.

Thanks

Dave

[Haavard Stoere]

According to Ingo Seidel in his latest book there are several things about Baryancistrus demantoides that sets it apart from other Baryancistrus species. He mentions the atypical elongated body of B. demantoides, the small adult size, the high and strange dorsal fin and also the location of the fish.

[apistomaster]

Haavard Stoere writes:
"Anyway... I definetely feel it is an important issue... Not looking twice, but several times... It makes the pieces fall into place(or not). Our inferior brains needs repetition.... We are after all not elephants."

You are correct, Haavard but I think we are more like the 7 blind men describing an elephant.

[Haavard Stoere]

Hi
I ask this as i have 2 of these fish, 1 hi fin and 1 low, neither of which have 'connected fins' which led me to believe that i possibly had 2 of the same species, now after reading this thread im confused again. Is there a third similar species involved aswell?

im not likely to breed so doesnt really impact me either way,i just like to know these things.

Thanks

Dave

The membrane between the dorsal and adipose fin is not visible unless the fish is arched forward so that the back is streched out. Small Hemiancistrus subviridis have quite high fins to to make matters even worse.

In semiadults/adults Of H. subviridis the spots on the fins are directly on the soft spines. In semiadults/adults Of B. demantoides the spots on the fins are only on the membranes between the soft spines. You may find a single spot or two that is in the wrong place, but looking at the location of the spots is really 100%.

[Haavard Stoere]

You are correct, Haavard but I think we are more like the 7 blind men describing an elephant.

lol!

If Baryancistrus demantoides is not really a Baryancistrus, and Hemiancistrus is a catch all genus of little significance.. Then maybee the two species are closely related after all?

[PlecoCrazy]

Doing some forum searching for telling the difference between the two species and came across this post. My question is on the spot placement. Based on the whole spot thing, the picture on the 4 post in this thread looks like one of each of the species; however it is labeled as a male/female of the same species

[Haavard Stoere]

Doing some forum searching for telling the difference between the two species and came across this post. My question is on the spot placement. Based on the whole spot thing, the picture on the 4 post in this thread looks like one of each of the species; however it is labeled as a male/female of the same species

The picture in post 4 is definetely without doubt male and female of Hemiancistrus subviridis.

About the placement of the spots... The female in this case have spots on the membrane between the soft spines of the pectoral fins. That is just an individual variation. She also has spots on her dorsal fin, and they are perfectly placed over the soft spines in regular rows. The placements of spots on the dorsal fins is much more consistent.

[DaveT]

If Baryancistrus demantoides is not really a Baryancistrus, and Hemiancistrus is a catch all genus of little significance.. Then maybee the two species are closely related after all?

I dont know why but im finding this really amusing.

Dave

[MatsP]

I dont know why but im finding this really amusing.

Dave

I think Haavard was LOL'ing at the "7 blind men describing an elephant".

My opinion on the subject:
I have met Mark Sabaj, who was one of the authors of the description of the H. subviridis and B. demantoides species, and who collected the fish in the Orinoco. We discussed the relationship between H. sp L128 and H. subviridis via e-mail recently. It is quite possible that the H. subviridis and H sp. L128 are indeed the same species.

It's also quite clear from the original description that B. demantoides is quite different on several accounts. Whether that is ENOUGH to place it in a separate species or not is for scientists to sort out - one group will form a theory, and that is either accepted or refuted by others. Whehter it is closer related to H. subviridis than, say a gold nugget (Baryancistrus sp L18 for example) is another good question - only DNA analysis can really solve that one to any extent.

Sorting out the relationships between all the Loricariidae is a major task - it takes about 3 man months to describe a new species, give or take a bit [the elapsed time is often MUCH longer than thatm, because fishes from different institutions need to be "borrowed" and examined]. It would probably be better to describe many more of the unknown species FIRST, before trying to determine exactly how the different genera and species are related.

--
Mats