Two c. sterbai ill for some time

[Troender]

I've got two c. sterbai that has been ill for some time. Those are two of a party of 7 wild caught sterbais. I've had them for a little more than a year. They are in a 130 liters community tank, with mostly peaceful fishes. The tank is a bit overstacked, but is very well filtered, with both an external and an internal filter. The external filter has been up and running for more than a year, and the internal filter for a month or two.

Here's the problem, and it's a rather long story. Two of the corys got a bit darker color more than a month ago. Their fins was a bit split up and a bit ragged. One got some problem with its balance, and in the end dug into the sand to prevent itself from falling over. They both seemed out of mood. The other fishes (except one non-cory - I will explain later), on the other hand, has been in very good shape, and the other sterbais has even delivered two rounds of and awful lot of eggs (which now is fry - but they are moved to another tank), and will probably start again in a few days. The balance problem came right before Christmas. As I was going away for the holidays, I gave them Flubenol in despair a few days before leaving. That seemed to help. They got their moods back, and the balance problem seemed to go away. But they didn't get well. They are still darker in color, and I've realized that they have breathe a lot more rapidly than the other corys. The fin problem disappeared on one of them, and this week the other cory seemed to have its fins healing as well. But tonight it seems worse again. And they are both thin. They have good apetite, and eat like the others. I've seen them eat, and they don't spit the food out. The last two days I've given them discus food (usually they get a very varied diet), which they have eaten heartily, but still they get thinner and thinner, day by day (I can see the difference in just a day!). So there you have it: they act like they are well (except for the breathing), but look very much like they aren't.

Besides the Flubenol (and, no, I didn't underdose it. I always overdose a lot!), the tank also has been through two rounds of other meds: Esha 2000 (which helps on infections from bacteria and fungus), and Esha Hexamita which helps against the same as Esha 2000, plus hexamita. Neither of the two Esha meds kill the bacteria in the filter, so there's been no filter crash because of it. Those two meds was used before the Flubenol, and was because of a very ill cichlid, who seemed to have hole-in-the-head disease. The cichlid didn't make it. The meds seemed to help, but the injuries was probably too severe for it to survive anyway.

Here's my water parameters:
PH: 7,3 - I know it's too high.
GH: 5-6
KH: 2-3
NO2: 0
NH3/NH4: 0
NO3: Well a bit high, but not alarmingly high.
Temperature: 25-26 degrees Celcius.

It's sand at the bottom of the tank.

Anyone who can help? I don't want to lose those two!

BTW, is there anyone who has a drawing of what a cory looks like inside?

[Troender]

The situation has worsened for one of the fishes. She has lost her apetite. At feeding time, she didn't eat, before some bloodworms landed right in front of her nose. She looks worse too, and don't want to move around.

[corydoras]

Hi

Darkened colour and loss of appetite are syptoms of high NO3 in my experience. How exactly high is your NO3 reading?

Different specimens have different tolerances to nitrate, even different specimens of the same species. It is possible that high nitrate is your problem.

Cheers

Matt

[Troender]

Right now, it's 40 mg/l (ppm), but that's not the normal situation (I am used to keeping puffers, and they are very sensitive to it - and no, I'm not keeping my puffers in this tank ). To try to do something about the corys getting thin, I've been overfeeding quite a bit this week (the other fishes seems to burst pretty soon. But luckily it also makes the female cory that's not ill almost burst with eggs too. And the males that are well, have been following her all day. Someone will get a lot of eggs again tomorrow ). The situation can't be that bad when the other corys is about to deliver their 3rd enormous portion of eggs since the those two became ill. No other fishes shows any sign of trouble. With good filtration, the nitrate level raises pretty much when you feed like I do now (and I also have some suckermouths in there - and they make a lot of waste!). I can't do WC today either, as I want the Flubenol I gave them again yesterday (in hope of making them better as it did last time, so they can survive until I get an answer) to do its work until tomorrow. Then I will do WC again.

BTW, the loss of apetite didn't come until today. They've been eating as normal since they became ill, that's the strange thing about it - I wouldn't have thought fishes being ill for a month would do that. They are just as eager at feeding time as the other corys, if not more! And, yes, I've made sure they actually eat the food, and not spit it out again. The one who doesn't want to eat today, has shown more interest for the food again tonight (I put very, very little food into the tank, just to see the reaction of that cory).

There's one more thing I haven't told though. When i do WC, I use tapwater directly into the tank (no clorine in the water around here, so I don't have to add anything to it), and that also means I use heated tapwater. I know that can be bad, but haven't had any trouble with it before. And I would think my puffers would be the first to show any sign of trouble if there was something, as puffers are very sensible fishes, and do not have scales. And my puffers are very well! No trouble with them ever (except one attac of IPs a long time ago).

[corydoras]

Hi

I'm scratching my head now as I wouldn't say 40ppm is an excessive level of nitrate. I suppose that it is possible that they are simply old fish now. They were wild caught so could have been a ripe old age before you got them.

Is there any chance of posting a photo of the affected fish?

Matt

[Troender]

40 mg/l is too much when you're dealing with puffers You get really focused on clean water when you are dealing with those fishes.

I have one pic that doesn't show much what the fish looks like, but the time it dug into the sand:

The fish is a little bit darker than it looks like in the pic. This is the fish that has become the most skinny, but it has been eating very well since I came home after Christmas. It eats well, but still waste away! At the time I took this pic, I was absolutely certain I would lose it. It had trouble with staying uprigth, and that's why it dug into the sand (I think), so it wouldn't fall over. I was at this time I gave Flubenol the first time, and the result om this fish was good. The ragged fins healed, and it came back to normal behaviour.

Old age could be the answer, but two at exactly the same time? The Flubenol I gave them, seemed to have been some help this time too, but they just don't get well. The female that stopped eating, has started eating again - for now... I just don't see how they can get thinner when they eat like the others? If they had not been corys, and I had not given them Flubenol twice, I would have said IPs. But it just can't be. And if it had been, they would have stopped eating by now.

Could it be something as easy as the high PH? I'm having trouble with getting it down to the right level, as the tap water is bloody 8,6! I will try to add CO2 to the water, but don't want to do it while those two are ill. Big changes is the last thing they need now.

[Troender]

BTW, they are less shy than the other corys, and they don't stay together with them either. The only good part about that, is that they let me take some new pics.
The male (you don't se the right color because I use flash, and you don't actually see how thin he is. He is the thinnest of those two):


The female:

[corydoras]

Hi

Your pH is not too high, my C. sterbai live and breed at 7.6. That would not be the cause otherwise all the shoal would be uncomfortable.

I fear that the fish have internal damage from some source. This could be backed up as cories don't get split fins and damaged fins for no reason, it's usually from something picking on them.

Can you list the other inhabitants of the tank? Also what was the cichlid (which susequently died) that was in the tank when the cory problems started? I know you have stated that the fish in there are non-aggressive, but it is not unusual to get a rogue specimen. I have seen killer zebra danios that terrorised the rest of the shoal, not something you expect to see from a so-called peaceful fish.

Matt

[Troender]

I've got some suckermouths, that certainly isn't doing any harm (they are wimps).
4 polkadot botias. They are teasy, but not mean. They can only be a bit annoying at feeding time, because they are both quick and smart.
2 cichlids the same kind as the one who died. Is it kribensis it's called in English? Those two I have now are males, and don't bother anyone else than each other (one will move as soon as I know what's bothering the corys. But I don't want to transfer any illness to the person who will have it). I know not all people would see those cichlids as "peaceful", but as long as there's no female, eggs or fry around, they actually don't bother anyone else but their own species. At least not the specimens I have. Well, that is except when the corys are laying eggs. But anyone would like a good cory egg meal! I've even seen them try to steal eggs out of the cory's fins, before she places them where she wants them. But the female cory that's been ill, hasn't been part of this egglaying party since last spring, so she's not been the victim of this behaviour. I've studied the tank closely (both at daytime and at night), and I can't see anyone bothering the corys! I must have spent hours studying the tank lately.
The two ill corys don't stay together with the other corys either. And they actually hide (from me) less than the others.

[Troender]

I forgot about my two sewellia lineolata. Very cute, and also a very peaceful species. Lineolatas are also very sensible to bad water conditions, so I would suspect them to show any sign if there was trouble with the water. But I think we have ruled out that theory now.

[Troender]

BTW, is there anyone who has a drawing of what a cory looks like inside? It could help me understand better what's happening to my beauties.

[corydoras]

Hi

I agree, I don't think it is your water.

I suspect that your botias may be the culprits for the dorsal fin damage. I had skunk botias, Botia horae, do the very same to some of my corys at night. They never showed the behaviour during the day. This means that the fins damage may not be directly related to the loss of weight as it may just be the botias picking on the weakened fish.

I think you corys have internal damage that occurred a while back, possibly even when they were imported and it is only now showing itself. I'm not sure what else you can do I'm afraid as they are still feeding but not putting on weight.

Matt

[corydoras]

Oh thinking about it, there is one other possible cause and that could be fish TB - mycobacteria. That can cause wasting of the fish and is pretty much untreatable. The usual route is to euthanise the fish to stop the spread to other tankmates. However in the case of this internal bacteria, the deterioation of the fish is often quicker than you have seen.

Matt

[Troender]

I've been thinking about TB myself - or rather, tried not to think about it.
It's been suspision in one of my other tanks earlier, but that tank has been in total quarantine (not sharing any equipment at all) since the suspision came up, more than a year ago (and it came up at the same time as I bought my cory's tank). And that tank has been free of illnesses for a while now. There's just one thing that don't add up with TB on my corys: they should have stopped eating or lost interest in food if they had TB. But the really, really bad part here, is that if it is TB, all of my tanks but one (with my zebra plecos - I've never tanken any chance with them, never sharing any equipment with any other tank, thank God) could be infected. That is really, really bad news. VERY bad news!

After reading a bit on the subject, I've also got one more idea myself. I'm not sure what it's called in English, but I guess it's pretty close to Norwegian: internal flagellates? That don't quite add up with the fishes still eating either, but I am running out of ideas. I've given one more try on my Esha Hexamita, but I don't think it will do the trick (except that all Esha products work like liquid Viagra - they always make my fishes start spawning). I have one more thing I could give a try, but that one will give me an awful lot of other trouble - because that one will kill the filter bacteria. This one is supposed to work on both gram positive and negative bacteria, except of course TB. Nothing works on TB. But I don't want to use that med without the absolute need of it. Except, of course, I could give my corys a bath in the med (that should do the job, according to the manual). If it works on those two, I could give my whole tank a treatment if there's more fishes coming up with similar symptoms. When I had that trouble in the TB-suspected tank, I gave them three different meds (not at the exact same time, though), and I'm not sure which one worked: Flubenol, Esha Hexamita or one containing Nifurpirinol (the same as the one I haven't tried yet). And it seemed to solve my problems there. And that's in a tank that had almost continuous illnesses for a very, very long time. I can't remember having any trouble there after that pretty hard cure, except for a fish eating all the others, but that's another story. Don't ever buy a mean mystus!

[Bas Pels]

Thinking about the two presented alternatives, bacteria (TB) or some internal parasite (such as flagellates) the observation 'eating fish getting thin' is much in favour of an internal parasite

Bacteria make fish ill, passive and so on. parasites will thinnen the fish, but only by preventing them getting any nutrient out of the eaten food. Certainly evolution would not have allowed internal parasites which prevent their victis (hosts, I should say) from eating

Another advantage, as flagellates are no bacteria (but some multcellular organism) antibiotics will not be needed - thus your filter bacteria will not be at risk

How do others feel about this?

[Troender]

Certainly evolution would not have allowed internal parasites which prevent their victis (hosts, I should say) from eating

In the end they do. When the fishes are weak enough, they stop eating. I've lost discuses to this. I never got them started eating again after IPs. That's part of the problem with some meds against IPs: they are made as food. But if the fish has stopped eating, you would never get the meds inside the fish.

The situation with the rest of my corys are good though. They started spawning again today. But the two ill fishes don't participate in it.

[Bas Pels]

You do have a point here - when a parasite takes over, and the fish is dying, it will not eat anymore. I think, from a parasite point of view, they were unlucky to have a host not able to control them

[Troender]

Well, I've tried most illnesses in my 23 tanks IPs is just one of them. But I always get the strange illnesses, that noone seems to be able to find out what is. The common illnesses, like ich, never occur here. Only the ones that's impossible to name

The Hexamita med seems to actually work this time. At least the fishes act a little bit more normal, and it seems like they've gained some weight again, or at least seem to have stopped getting thinner. Maybe the flagellate theory is the answer? As they are not well yet, and the Hexamita cure is supposed to be over today, I will try to give them a second go with the same med. The manual says you can continue with a second go with it, if the fishes aren't cured at the first attempt. I'm not sure it will cure them completely, as it's been ups and downs with them all the way, but I will give it a try. The only side effect is that it can make more fishes start spawning. And that's a side effect I can live with. I have some L-144 that has recently matured, and I would really like to see them make cute little babies.

I still will take advices on this subject though. And ideas will be nice. And I still want to see a drawing of what a cory looks like inside.

[Troender]

An update on this case: it seems like flagellates was the right theory. Both corys has put on weight, and is back to normal shape. The ragged fins seem to heal as well. The only thing that still is present, is that they are darker in color than the others. So I won't say they are well yet. I've stopped giving them meds now, so we'll see in the weeks to come whether they continue to improve, or if they go back to the same problems. At least they are better, much better!

[Troender]

Here you have a very, very late update on this case, which really was solved in a strange way. After the medication, the cories got better, but they never got totally well. They continued to have ragged fins, especially one of them. This went on for months, until I ended up on hospital for 6 weeks. During that time, the fishes got fed only twice a week, but I managed to keep up with the normal water change schedule. And after 6 weeks in hospital, I couldn't find a single cory with ragged fins, and the number of cories was still right. After 6 weeks of feeding only twice a week, the last ill cory healed! I have no idea why (I don't think they were over fed). But I am very, very happy about it, of course. Those wild caught cories were my first cories, and they all have a special place in my heart. I really love them, and will be very sad the day I lose any of them.