Why are my Panda corys dying?

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 30 Nov 2007, 20:17

I got 3 panda corys over a month ago. All were lively and active at the store. One died that week, the next a couple weeks ago and the 3rd is now suddenly drifting after being fine yesterday.

1. Water parameters
a) Temerature range. - 76 - 78
b) pH.- 7.6
c) GH. - not sure. Last test showed 120
d) KH - ?
e)Ammonia - o Nitrate - around 7 - 10ppm Nitrite - 0 leavels.
f) Water change frequency - 25% once a week.
(Most LFS's will check your water and give a list of readings).

2. Tank set up
a) Size - 20 gallon high.
b) Substrate - smooth, small stones
c) Filtration HOB power filter
d) Furnishings - live and silk plants, rocks, driftwood
e) Other tank mates - 2 cherry barbs, 8 neons, one 2" ancistrus, 1 other cory
f) How long has it been set-up? - 6 months

3. Symptoms / Problem description
Corys acting fine, lively, eating well. Sudden lethargy, drifting and death. No outward symptoms of any disease at all.

4. Action taken (if any)
Partial water changes using Prime.

5. Medications used (if any)
None

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Dec 2007, 10:29

My guess would be that your temperature is slightly on the high side. This is not an uncommon complaint. Panda cories prefer a temperature around the lower side of 70's.

Although it is of course entirely possible that there are many other reasons for their demise.

--
Mats

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 01 Dec 2007, 15:03

Thanks. I guess it's near impossible to know for sure, although since this started I have been reading about Pandas dying for no apparent reason.

Lowering the temp won't hurt, and I think I'll stick with hardier species.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Dec 2007, 21:30

The Panda Corys do better in cooler temperatures as Mat said and the fish being sold are not very vigorous.

They really need several weeks in quarantine and plenty of live worms and brine shrimp nauplii to help build them back up.
I also think it's worth treating them with flubendazole and praziquantal to deworm them. After this quarantine and treatment phase they will live long and spawn fairly easily if you feed them lots of live worms, frozen blood worms and keep them at about 74*F/22.5*C.

My spawning group of Corydoras panda have shown a preference for placing their eggs in clumps of hair algae.

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 01 Dec 2007, 23:35

Thanks. I'll keep all that in mind.

It was hard, and kind of shocking, to see them die after watching them enthusiastically gobbling bloodworms just the night before.

Right now I have just one aeneus cory. Would you say they are hardier? I don't like seeing corys alone, but am a bit nervous about getting any more of them.

bslindgren · Post by **bslindgren** » 03 Dec 2007, 01:21

I had exactly the same problem as you. I lost some panda corys and a bunch of paleatus, which also likes the water a tad cooler. I came to the conclusion that the temperature in my tank was too high for both of these species. I was close to giving up on cories, just like you, when my LFS brought in some largish C sterbai. I couldn't resist but because they were rather more expensive I only got two of them. They are doing great and I recently added 5 more. They are well worth the extra money. I also have a few aeneus and they seem fine as well. I keep the temperature at around 78.

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 03 Dec 2007, 04:02

Thanks. My tank has always ranged around the 76 - 78 mark.
Something else - the night before this last Panda died, I was taking pics of the tank and it was only when I looked at them I noticed his barbels were very short.

Could he have worn them down so quickly in my tank, or was that some sign of an unseen illness?

Would you mind giving an opinion from this pic in which you can see the Panda's short barbels? Is the substrate no good? I don't want to get any other corys if that's the case.

bslindgren · Post by **bslindgren** » 03 Dec 2007, 04:22

I can't see how the barbels would have been worn down on those pebbles. Usually it's sharp edges that are bad. I have mine on regular 'gravel' bought from an LFS. The aeneus looks fine, so it's more likely that the barbels were damaged when you bought them. WRT the gravel - it wouldn't be my choice, but I don't know that it's bad, necessarily. I'm really not sure - hopefully one of the cory experts will help you out.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Dec 2007, 15:41

I agree with bslindgren. The round gravel isn't the likely culprit. More likely a bacterial infection related to stress related lowered immune response caused barbel deterioration.

The need of a quarantine, treatment regime and live foods is difficult to overemphasize when receiving newly shipped Corydoras panda.

Once they are finished with quarantine and reconditioning they will do fine at 76*F/24.5*C. It is at the upper range of their comfort zone but still OK.
They can thrive at that temperature despite it being slightly higher than ideal.

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 03 Dec 2007, 16:58

WRT the gravel - it wouldn't be my choice

What would be your choice? Sand, or..?

This cory's barbels were not damaged at all when I got him. I think they deteriorated pretty quickly. The aeneaus I've only had since Nov 20th, and don't want the same thing to happen to him.

This is the Panda Oct.19th with normal barbels.

The need of a quarantine, treatment regime and live foods is difficult to overemphasize when receiving newly shipped Corydoras panda.

That regimen applies only to Pandas? Thanks for all advice. I appreciate it!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 03 Dec 2007, 19:35

The fact that you should quarantine new fish applies to all fish. The right temperature is obviously not the same for a fish that in the wild lives in cool water and one that lives in warm water.

Live foods are often the best foods for several reasons:
1. No loss of nutrition through "processing".
2. It's "interesting" and "fun" to the fish, so even if they are stressed and a bit down, they will probably eat it. This is important for fish that is recovering from "shock" of being transported all over the place several times in the last few days.

--
Mats

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 03 Dec 2007, 23:47

I haven't kept corys for 20 years, so this has all been most helpful.

Thank you!

Plecofanatic1989 · Post by **Plecofanatic1989** » 04 Dec 2007, 04:17

Your pandas probably had some sort of infection or parasite. I noticed that the face is discolored. The area around the mouth should be the same as the base color, light tan or so. I also use regular gravel, so that's not the problem. BTW, I've kept pandas at 85F along with paleatus without any problems for well over six months. Right now I have a tank with a small school of pandas (I moved the ones from my 85F tank to this one to join the school) and am hoping they will spawn. I believe that I have 3 females and 2 males.
Here's a pic of mine.

Good luck! Keep trying pandas, they are delighful and well worth the money. Again, good luck.
Josh

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 04 Dec 2007, 05:21

Your pandas look just great! Hope they produce some little ones for you. I notice you have just about the same gravel as I do so I'm relieved on that count.

Truthfully, I didn't even notice the facial discolouration and feel quite bad that I may have been able to save these guys had I seen it. All I saw was that they acted/ate normally.

I would love to have more pandas, but will wait until I get my QT tank up and running again!

Plecofanatic1989 · Post by **Plecofanatic1989** » 04 Dec 2007, 05:52

Thats a good idea. I will never diss the QT tank, but I've never had a need for one... well once I did. I lost about a dozen fish to ich (including 2 $30 gold nugget plecs and a $30 discus). After that, I'm just more careful about the fish I buy. I always choose the ones I want and I always watch their behavior in the store. I work in a fish store, so that really helps in selecting the fish. I watch them daily and feed them

. Anyway if you can afford a QT tank, a would advise it, if not, just be very careful about the fish you buy. Research the fish you want first (I always do... look at my post on Hypancistrus debilittera - they screwed up

). Be aware of damage, unhealthy behavior, or (in this case) a discoloration.
I doubt that you would have been able to do anything about the illness. He looked like there was permanent damage in the pic with the barbels. Just be very cautious is all I can really say.
Callichthyids and loricariids are my specialty, but I still have a lot to learn. The discoloration could have been fungal or bacterial, I cannot say, but if you find good healthy pandas you won't be disappointed.
A thousand times good luck. If you have any questions, you can always ask me. If I don't know, then I'll find out... I'm used to it.
Josh

pLaurent1251 · Post by **pLaurent1251** » 04 Dec 2007, 19:23

Thanks so much for your offer of help!

In 20+ years of fishkeeping, I admit I never used a QT tank, and not once did I have disease, mass die-offs etc and all my fish lived quite long lives. I guess I was just lucky!

I was going to use an old 15 gal I have as a QT tank, but just found out it leaks so must reseal it.

I got the 3 pandas from two different places, so was quite shocked to see the same thing with all - seeming perfect health, then dead the next day.

Now that I know what to look for, I'll examine more carefully any I'm thinking of getting.

Plecofanatic1989 · Post by **Plecofanatic1989** » 04 Dec 2007, 19:40

That's good to hear. I'm glad that I've been helpful

.
Josh

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 24 Dec 2007, 09:56

Sorry to hear about your pandas. I went through losing them like that, too. Then I stopped losing any until I went away for 2 weeks on vacation. I did everything I could to prep the tank but the automatic feeders (Eheim brand) malfunctioned--not dispensing any food to my goldfish tank and overfeeding the cory/cichlid danio tank. The tank looked fine but had a bad algae bloom and the substrate was pretty skanky, and I should have changed it out right away, but being Eco-Complete, it was dark and I could not see that it was filthy. I mean, it looks like dirt. So how can you tell when dirt is dirty? I didn't see any poop. But when I was taking the substrate out, I found a lot of little bits of missing panda cories. And I continued to lose a few more until a week or so after the substrate change.

After lots of experimentation with different setups I find I lost pandas when...driftwood was very far deteriorated and I didn't realize it, plus it and all the plants trapped debris and gases and anerobic bacteria in the substrate. Everyone keeps planted and driftwood decorated tanks with no problems except me, apparently.

Or...I lost them when I let the sand stay in the tank over a month. So now I change out ALL of the sand and put in new sand once a month. I keep it to a depth of only 1/4 an inch now, since I am no longer trying to root plants in it. The fish are used to this and seem fine and even playful while I disrupt their living quarters like this. I don't even have to take them out, but past experience makes me sometimes dose the tank with Jungle Buddies Anti-Parasite if I notice them flashing shortly afterward. It doesn't always happen, especially now that I change once a month, but in the past it seems taking up the substrate released some parasites or some kind of no-see-ums that caused gill redness. Plain Praziquantel also works, too. I use Jungle Buddies because it has Prazi and other ingredients to tackle things I might not suspect.

I have tried almost all the sands. The one that seems to work best texture and size wise and seems to bring out the most snuffling in the sand activity has proven to be Estes Marine Sand. Yes, I know it says Marine sand but in fine print it says it is okay for freshwater tanks, too, and it most definitely is. I have also tried Tahitian moon sand in the black and the much finer white varieties. The black is perfectly fine but a bit more abrasive than the Estes sand so the snuffling activity seems to be less, and the white is very soft and fine but floats up into the filter intakes too easily.

I have also tried Eco Complete while trying to maintain a natural planted tank but it was while I was using Eco Complete that I experienced the most health problems in the panda cories and had an outbreak of fin rot (it was after the return from my vacation--after the tank had been cleaned, or so I thought, but before it occured to me to change out the EcoComplete).

I clean the tank every week and do water changes but that was not enough to keep such fine substrate clean. Even in my goldfish tank with small rounded gravel, despite regular gravel vacuuming, I had one goldfish come down with rot and septicemia. (He is a delicate fish, having been purchased in a weakened condition and nursed back to health). He pulled through very well after I changed out the substrate and reduced the depth to half an inch. I used to wonder if I overfeed but when I clean I don't see any leftover food and all of my fish are very thorough eaters. To me, it seems problems crop up when gravel substrate is deeper than an inch and sand substrate is up to a half an inch or slightly more.

I keep hot and cold water cories in together--sterba with pandas, for example. I keep the tank at 74F but have had no problems keeping temps at 78 and even 80 for weeks.

I don't have problems with initiating mini cycles every time I change out the substrate because I have such high capacity canister filters running on my tanks.

I also keep minimal decor now, and no hollow decorations that could trap debris or toxic gases. I gave up on having a planted tank and content myself with a small scattering of java ferns in each tank. I also gave up on silk plants just to improve water flow in the tank. There is now no ornamentation at all in the goldfish tank and only a "Tiki hut" and small bridge decor for the cories and one non-hollow cave decoration for my cichlid to live in.

My tanks no longer look natural, unfortunately, but the fish are healthy and happy and even gifted me with some fine albino cory eggs recently (I got to see them spawn and all that cool stuff!). Alas, the danios ate them all...the pigs.

I absolutely love pandas--they are ALWAYS active, outgoing and unflappable. I still have 5, out of the 11 I started with prior to the vacation troubles, and someday when I move everyone to a 75 or larger tank, I will try to boost them back up to 10. I also find my albino aeneus to have a similar playful outgoing and active disposition. Everyone else seems to like to cluster inside the tiki hut most of the time. Boring. But I think they made a sports bar in there.

Oh almost forgot--they are not necessarily that fragile. I accidently siphoned one up last month and he was stuck in the siphon hose, which I rested in an empty bucket, for about 15 minutes before I noticed him and rescued him. I put him back into the tank and he was busy looking for food a short time later. However I have noticed that 4 pandas are always together and one is now always by himself. I wonder if he came back with a tale of alien abduction and the other cories decided to give him some space.

PS...my signature is outdated so don't pay attention to the 3 pandas listed. I upped that number after I took a hiatus from the forum.