Amonia locking

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 07 Nov 2007, 06:51

If water treatments work by binding the chloromine (Chlorine and ammonia) could you use this stuff as a n emergency amonio locker in case of a filter meltdown?
What do you think?
Matt

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 07 Nov 2007, 07:40

I believe that a product like "Prime" or "Amquel" could certainly buy a little time in the case of a filter meltdown. Really though, if you have the ability to change water in this hypothetical emergency, I'd do that.

featherback · Post by **featherback** » 08 Nov 2007, 21:00

I have seen products that are specifically made for this, SERA I think.

FB

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 09 Nov 2007, 00:18

Using large water changes might still be best strategy. I believe I'm correct in saying these ammonia sequestering additives also negatively affect dissolved oxygen levels. Dilution of the ammonia reduces the amount of ammonia "locking" chemicals needed to counter it.
It is a balancing act between gaining the most benefits without incurring too much risk. Is the remedy worse than the ailment? The assumption I am making is that the water quality is already endangering and stressing the fish. Water changes won't cause the problems to get any worse.

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 09 Nov 2007, 02:35

I think everyone has got my question mixed up.
I am aware of procedures regarding filter disasters, and that there are products developed esp. for this, I was wondering about specifically the stuff for dechlorinateing water for interest only.
I know there are people on this site that have knowledge of all kinds of things and I was hoping someone may know exactly how this stuff works.
I am interested because I only started using it about a year ago, before that I just areated for 24hrs to remove the chlorine gas and never had any problems, I asume because my filters were working very eficiently to get rid of any amonia from the chloromine.
Does anyone know, for example, how long chloromine remains stable once no longer under pressure?
How long does it take for bacteia to turn amonia into nitrate? (Specific details, not "depends how much water is in your tank and how big your filter is")
If anyone knows the answers to my pointless questions it would be much apreciated.
Matt

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 09 Nov 2007, 04:30

Matt,
There was a long discussion about this on killitalk several months ago that did cover many of your questions but I did not commit all of it to memory.
What I recall is whereas chlorine dissipates in hours chloramines will do so in days at 25 C.

I don't remember the exact chemical reactions that the water conditioners use.

The bacterial conversion of ammonia to nitrite is unavoidably going to depend on the initial concentration of ammonia/ammonium, pH, dissolved oxygen level, temperature and of Nitrosomonas
bacteria per given volume.
It is a dynamic system and any one variable will change the time a given concentration of ammonia/ammonium is converted. I don't think there is a straight forward answer except under tightly controlled laboratory conditions using constant values then a time can be determined that can only repeated again under the exact same conditions.

The same problem applies to the next conversion step of nitrite to nitrate.
If fish keeping was an exact science it would probably not make a very good hobby.

snowball · Post by **snowball** » 09 Nov 2007, 12:52

grokefish wrote: Does anyone know, for example, how long chloromine remains stable once no longer under pressure?
How long does it take for bacteia to turn amonia into nitrate? (Specific details, not "depends how much water is in your tank and how big your filter is")
Matt

Out city water department recently started adding chlormine to the supply again after years of just chlorine. I have a 220l drum that I age water in, it is filtered through a small cannister filter that contains a bag of Seachem purigen & also goes through a UV sterilizer. Out of the tap the water shows a moderate level of ammonia, and does so in the drum for about two days. After that there is the tiniest hint of nitrate showing in a test, then after a week it is gone (the purigen?). The barrel is about 25 C and is aerated, and no dechlorinator is added.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 09 Nov 2007, 22:27

Here is a review of the various water conditioners.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm
More links are provided to the various manufacturers' propaganda so don't expect much in the way of technical info; that's proprietary "eyes only" stuff, ya know?