Sick ancistrus (repost/crosspost, sorry)

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 23 Sep 2007, 14:08

Repost/crossposting from the speak easy forum for relevance.

The final reason prompting me to join is a request for some help. We have set up the second 2ft tank recently to house inch to 2 inch baby ancistrus, currently emerging in the 4ft community tank. Have been careful to ensure there is plenty of biological filtration in it (took large power filter out of 4ft still primed (4ft just got a brand new Fluval 405 Canister)0, cycling third of water every 3 or 4 days, temps the same (27C), pH similar (7.5ish).

In the last few days I have noticed the babies are quite red around the mouth.

And doing the water change this afternoon i noticed 2 dead. They have been fed some spirulina flakes (only take occasionally) and some sinking fish pellets (mostly fish meal).

Some more sick ones evident today, now with some other developments.

Some fish seem swollen and some "growths"? though photo looks like sitting on some eggs... and terribly bulgy eyes. Other just with red mouths still.

[img:240:188]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1103/142 ... 2a1c_m.jpg[/img]

Not sure if the mouth redness and previous problems are related or two seperate issues.

Again, any thoughts appreciated greatly, LFS should reopen trmw, will trundle down there as well.

Post by **Barbie** » 23 Sep 2007, 19:00

At the top of the forum there's a sticky requesting information and what types if you have a sick fish question. If you could give us that information, it would be apt to be a lot more helpful for you.

Barbie

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 24 Sep 2007, 01:24

. Water parameters
a) Temerature range: as mentioned - 27
b) pH: as mentioned - 7.5
c) GH: unknown
d) KH: unknown
e)Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels; unknown
f) Water change frequency: as mentioned - 3 days

2. Tank set up
a) Size: as mentioned - 2ft
b) Substrate: as shown - gravel
c) Filtration: as mentioned - power filter
d) Furnishings: java fern, java moss, single piece of drift
e) Other tank mates: as mentioned - none.
f) How long has it been set-up: 3 weeks
g) When was the last new fish added: over space of last 2 weeks
h) Foods used and frequency: as mentioned - spirulina tabs and fish meal based tabs.

3. Symptoms / Problem description: as described

4. Action taken: tank medicated once with malachite green based treatment at half recommended dosage.

5. Medications used (if any)- per above

I did read the sticky, and i'm sorry I left a few details out.

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Sep 2007, 07:59

If the tank has only been set up 3 weeks, the odds are good that the fish are suffering from ammonia poisoning. I'd definitely do another 30% water change. Stop feeding the fish, invest in a test kit. Do NOT add more medications. You kill off more beneficial bacteria and what not with those things than you usually help the fish suffering through whatever issue they're having. It normally takes an aquarium 3-6 weeks to "cycle". If you need more reading material on it, I can definitely provide a link or two.

Barbie

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 24 Sep 2007, 15:26

Yeah, have been doing 30% water changes every 3 days on average since the first fish went in ( i think i've done 4 in two weeks, and yes, using water ager), and the power filter that went into the tank was already fully primed bacterially having run the last 12 months in the main tank, am continuing water changes, going to get a new bit of bogwood, i'm a little sus on the one in there, and since i figure it forms such a large part of the fishes life...

currently wondering if the wood itself is unhealthy or whether it my be some kind of parasite/fungus or both.

Thanks for your input Barbie, appreciated the reassurance I was on the right track so far as problem management.

Post by **Barbie** » 24 Sep 2007, 17:35

just moving an established filter is NOT guarantee enough that you moved enough bacteria. Water with no fish in it will have no food for the bacteria and you're going to be subject to a big die back. I would recommend you buy a test kit and start there first. Stop looking for other sources until you rule ammonia or nitrite out.

Barbie

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 25 Sep 2007, 00:00

I also primed the tank's initial filling by filling half its volume with water from the community tank.

Getting new wood and NH4 and NO2 tested today.

Suprised to think might still be possible despite such a heavy water change regime

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 26 Sep 2007, 09:10

Yeah, nothing wrong with the water, was bacterial infection as suggested in previous thread, apparently a fairly text book case, have lost a few more, if I had some tetracycline in the tank earlier instead worrying about wood or water...

So we learn.

Thanks anyway Barbie!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 26 Sep 2007, 10:27

But bacterial infections are quite often caused by bad water or some other stress-factor. So Barbie asking about your water is trying to prevent the same thing from re-appearing - because it most likely will if you don't pay attention to water care.

--
Mats

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 27 Sep 2007, 01:16

Oh, I have no doubt, and water changes are continuing every 3 or 4 days.

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 27 Sep 2007, 01:21

I hear that trichlorfon is a no-no for ancistrus, (anti parasite meds), and that they are also quite sensitive to raising salt levels, but has anyone had any bad experiences with tetracycline or other such anti-bacs?

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 27 Sep 2007, 15:41

You never want to use tetracycline in an established tank. Always use in a separate treatment tank. Tetracycline WILL kill nitrifying bacteria, starts out ugly yellow then breaks down to an even uglier red and it forms surface foam. In short, it will trash an established tank.

Post by **Janne** » 27 Sep 2007, 20:25

The problem you have is caused by bacteria and the best way to treat that (if not going to far) is to raise the temp to around 29-30 C and add salt, Ancistrus or other Loricariids are not sensitive to salt in right proportions. It's enough with 30-50 g / 100 L, no feeding under the treatment but change water as you are doing before, heavy circulation to keep the oxygen level high. What Barbie write is absolutely correct and whats normaly happen in a not cycled tank, but if you have used 50% of old water and moved a powerhead from a cycled tank to this...it's not probably that reason (I dont know what medication you used).

Tetracyclin or Oxytetracyclin is not so effective like many people thinks, it has many negative sides like it breaks down extremely quickly under lights or sun, it's needed to cover the tank so it's completely dark under the treatment. Also have many bacteria strains become resistive against this antibiotica.

If using any medication against internal bacteria it's much better to use Metronidazole, 500 mg to 100 L (1 tablett). Solve the tablett in a little water first and then add to the tank, after 24 hours the medication have break down and no water changes are needed. The best way to medicate Metronidazole is to blend with the food, either you make your own "med.food" or you solve Metronidazole in little water and add some plecotabletts, after that you feed them...if they still eat of course.

Trichlorfon/Neguvon is really no-no for plecos, they are extremely sensitive to that compare with bigger cichlids or foodfish and you need to know exactly what you do.
For parasites is better to use Flubendazole/Flubenol (Flourbendazole) which Loricariids not are so sensitive against, dont forget to change water after treatment.

Janne

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 28 Sep 2007, 23:17

Thanks for the help guys/gals.

Let me just clarify, I know what Barbie wrote is correct and good information, and I do appreciate it, I was not ever having a go at anyone

Will try a temperature/salt based treatment if you think its fine, why are there so many doffering opinions on these things on the intarwebs?

Yeah, I understand the down side of tetracycline, the babies are in there own tank however, so it would be manageable.

THanks again everyone!

:):)

Post by **Barbie** » 29 Sep 2007, 06:34

People tend to just ADD salt when they do water changes, without a way to test the levels. For those people, then adding additional salt for treatment can be detrimental to the fish. If you don't add salt regularly, you can actually dose it quite heavily (adding a teaspoon per gallon every day for 3 days after a 1/3 water change. In a 10 gallon tank, you add 10 teaspoons every day, although you're diluting the previous dosage by 1/3 first, if that makes sense.) I've used that treatment with even very small ancistrus fry when I had to.

95% of the time, in my shop, fish sickness issues are caused by improper quarantine procedures or poor water quality or both. I always tend to start there before moving on. I've seen people doing weekly and biweekly water changes on new tanks with 10ppm nitrites. Trust me, it happens ;). Testing is the only way to know for sure it isn't!

Good luck getting your guys healthy again

.

Barbie

oscar III · Post by **oscar III** » 04 Oct 2007, 09:20

Nice regime, avoiding taking it too high too fast i guess, i was wondering how well they would handle that.

They seem to be at a bit of a crux point at the moment either getting better or are too far gone and getting worse.

Have be adding a does of a Melaleuca Oil based treatment (i think it might be called Catjeput o similar elsewhere) which is a very mild treatment in addition to the salt.