2 meter Orinoco basin tank setting up...

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 31 Aug 2007, 16:09

I too am very overcautious and prefer to not use things i that present even the slightest risk...I simply love my fish too much to accept the risk...

No,rigid piping can be made removable if you use screw fittings which is what i would use if i choose that way...Flexible piping is used for easier installation and removal and i personally think it would present less resistance to the water flow than i.e. corners of rigid pvc...
On the other hand,drinking water quality flexible tubing of that diameter must be really difficult to find...I even had (small)difficulties to find 1,5inch flexible piping for drinking water...

What would you use?

Thank you very much in advnace

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 31 Aug 2007, 16:20

Yes, I would expect large diameter drinking water/food-safe pipes can be hard to find.

Do you actually need more than 1.5" to get enough water flowing?

--
Mats

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Sep 2007, 09:31

Yes,according to the manufacturer,i need that diametre of hoses for the overflow to get enough water flowing...
So i will go searching for hoses soon...
An update on the tank,i cutted the sump bulkheads to the lenght i needed and also widened with a grinder the inside diametre of one of them...
Also,i decided to buy all powerheads to be Tunze turbelle electronic 7400/2 that have all the things i want(long 5meter cable,venturi plus adjustable flow)...I have already bought the first one and the multicontroller from the company i have told you about as it wasnt able to find another one soon...By the way,i am very satisfied with its size and looks and also with the things it can do...

So i ordered the rest 4 from the Pet shop through which i ordered the woods as he will sell them to me at a very low price comparable to the one i bought the first...He found two through the Greek distributor of Tunze,he had no other!!!I think this model is getting very hard to find...

Tunze must have replaced that model with a new one as at its site,this model is no longer shown where it was...
Anyway,i managed to find the 5th pump at another Fish shop that had 4on stock for some time now,although the price i will buy it from there is unfortunately 110euros higher than i bought the first one from Germany and 100 higher than the Pet shop i told you about will sell me the pumps...Anyway,its one pump only...Will be buying these 4 pumps within this week...
Now,i would like your help choosing what air pump to buy...The airpump will provide air to the following things:
The 5 venturis of the Tunze electronic powerheads as the depth at which they will be placed doesnt allow for a normal Venturi operation...
1 or 2 bubble wands at the holding tank to aerate RO the water while in there...
1 air driven filter in the sump to have a spare biologically active small filter in case i need to setup a small tank in an emergency...
I think thats it all...Maybe say an airstone or two more if needed in an emergency...Of course the tubing will be very long for the venturis(more than 3 meters) and that might affect the pumps output...Also water column will be around 54cm...So,what air pump would you suggest?How many litters of air it must pump?

Thank you very much in advance

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 08 Sep 2007, 11:47

Any help please?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Sep 2007, 07:37

Have a look here:

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalo ... spares.asp

Scroll down to the bottom and have a look at the Rensun and Blagdon Koi models.

These have multiple outlets and produce the quantities of air you are looking for.

I would worry that the koi model may be too noisy though, as it is designed for outdoor use where noise is less of an issue.

Any large air pump is going to be pretty noisy though.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 10 Sep 2007, 18:49

Thank you very much for your reply racoll

I will keep these in mind...In my search,i also found the Luft pump, a heavy duty Coralife model and the Whitewater linear diaphragm pump...
Of all these and the pumps you proposed me,which one do you think that better suits my needs without too much noise?I think that the last one is rulled out as it states it makes more noise than usual airpumps...
I there any Schego model that would suit my needs?I prefer this brand as from my experience,their pumps are very quiet,powerfull and at the same time they last a long long time without repair...Even with clogged airstones...

Thank you very much in advance

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 12 Sep 2007, 10:53

there any Schego model that would suit my needs?

Never even heard of this make.

Of all these and the pumps you proposed me,which one do you think that better suits my needs without too much noise?

The Rensun one looks good, as it has 8 outlets, which is enough for your needs.

As far a noise goes, you will just have to buy one and change it for another if it is too noisy.

You could contact the manufactures and get a decibel reading from them.

As a guide, the 10 litres/min evolutionaqua model is 30dB.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 13 Sep 2007, 08:30

Thank you very much for your reply and the help racoll

This is the website of Schego...Its German made and very good quality...

It doesnt have to have many outlets...I can do that with a regulator...I just need it to be capable of pumpoing enough air...

Also if you see the Coralife provides a metal fitting to spread the air to more outlets....

Thank you very much in advance

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 18 Sep 2007, 13:35

I think its time for an update

Unfortunately i wasnt able to work much on the tank but i thought i would tell you what i more i have done so far and show you some pictures...

Ok,so as i had already told you I painted the metal tank stand skeleton with black car paint...Also,i washed the holding tank,cutted the sump fittings for the pumps to appropriate lenght and widened the inside diameter of the one for the big Tunze master electronic pump with a grinder...Also i searched the slate pieces i have and found the tops for the caves i am going to make...
But,although i didnt worked much,i bought some more of the equipment i will use in the tank...I finally bought all 5 Tunze turbelle electronic 7400/2 powerheads and a multicontroller and also an Eheim 1262 pump which will be second return pump of the sump...

In addition to the above,i went to a big company that specializes on pebbles and bought 80kg of smooth rounded basalt(15-25cm diametre) and also 10 slate tiles 30x30cm each...

And now some photos...
Enjoy them!!!

Holding tank...

... and the sump...

The threaded sump fittings are cut shorter so as to not protrude more than needed to thread the switches on...The central fitting was one thats made for many different sizes hose and so i cutted it to the hose size i will use...But the inside diametre was much smaller and i had to cut a cm more to get the correct inside diametre...But because i wanted to have ample place to put clamps for the hose,i enlarged the inside diametre with a grinder...

The switches...

As i previously said,i have painted the metal skeleton black with car paint...You can see the result...I think it looks better now anyway...

And now,the slates...
Here is how i plan to make the slate caves and also the slate building...What do you think of them?Will they look natural?As you see at the drawings,the slate pieces used will be grinded to become pebble like and smooth or maybe i may go for a pebble slate style(with that i mean only the upper surface of each piece being smoothed and the other left as it is,thats how river slate pebbles look...Of course if i go for the second,the segments which are smaller than their underneath will be much fewer to have a natural look...)...What do you think would be more natural looking?

Here is how the long caves will look like...

And here is how the slate building will be like...

These are the slate pieces i have choosen to be their big pieces...

These two pieces will be the two middle pieces of the slate building...

This will be the uppermost piece of one of the long slate caves...

...and this of the other...

The large basalt pebbles and the black slate i bought recently...

A close up on the basalt rocks...

And now some bonus pics of the woods...
From the right side of the tank...

From the front...

From the left side of the tank...As you see there is some free space which i think my plecos will enjoy...

I hope you liked it!:)

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 18 Sep 2007, 13:41

Looks very nice. When it comes to slate caves, I would first of all look at Haakon Stavard's posts on his Xingu tank, but also "mock up"[1] a slate cave as you plan to make it, and see what it looks like.

[1] If the slate won't stay in place, you can perhaps use gaffa (gaffer, silver) tape to hold the pieces in place until you have made your mock-up model. If it doesn't look natural, change it until you have something you like.

--
Mats

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 18 Sep 2007, 15:32

Thank you very much for your suggestions Mats

I do have looked and many times at Haavards thread and have been greatly inspired by his work...
I will probably do what you say,mock up one and see...But if you have any suggestions on how to make the caves look more natural,i would be very glad to hear them...In fact i am looking for them...
Another question,does Rio Orinoco has stones like the ones Haavard is using?I mean in texture and shape,not as material only...

Thank you very much in advnace

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 18 Sep 2007, 20:11

Where are you going to put the slate Kostas?

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 18 Sep 2007, 20:59

Kostas wrote:I do have looked and many times at Haavards thread and have been greatly inspired by his work...

You have inspired me too. It is truly a great tank you are building

Kostas wrote:I will probably do what you say,mock up one and see...But if you have any suggestions on how to make the caves look more natural,i would be very glad to hear them...In fact i am looking for them...

I saw an article on plecofanatics.com about bulding caves from slate that look more natural. I shall try to find the artcle for you. Mocking up is very useful.

Kostas wrote:Another question,does Rio Orinoco has stones like the ones Haavard is using?I mean in texture and shape,not as material only...

Hemiancistrus subviridis lives among boulders of granite. You must have in mind that my interpretation of the biotope is rather romantic. If you look closely at the Hemiancistrus subviridis in Cat-elog you can see the biotope in the background. That is truly an amazing picture.

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 18 Sep 2007, 21:24

Here is the article:
http://www.plecofanatics.com/forum/show ... hp?t=25954

Instead of the vertical walls of the caves I would use a few layers of strips glued horisontally together to make the side walls. This way you actually take the very nature of the material into account. Doing it like in the artcle is of course easier, and it actually looks good in the bottom of the tank. Shadows will quite effectively hide the vertical walls from view.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 19 Sep 2007, 08:58

Thank you very much for your replys!

grokefish,
I will use the slate to make 2 caves and 1 cave network and also to cover the bottom of the right half of the tank so as to protect it from the heavy basalt pebbles...

Haavard,
Thank you very much for your suggestions

Thank you for that...

I never thought of it as i havent made anything close to good,natural looking till now

Just a few big pieces of wood...
Thank you very much for the article

I have read it in the past of but read it again to have it fresh

Yeah,exactly as you said,when using slate you need to place the pieces horizontial and have no vertical ones to have something according to the nature of the material...If you look at my drawings,you will see that thats how i have planned the sides be...But if i leave the edges as the article says,though it will do look natural from the point of the material,it wont be natural for a river setting...

Every rock in a river is smoothened by the river...There are no rocks with sharp edges...Also,having been handling the slate,i can tell you its really sharp at the edges and i wouldnt put it with fish in that condition...So i will surely have to smoothen the edges...
When i was at the shop were i got the basalt pebbles from,i saw big river stones of the same nature as slate but they were light brown in color...In other words it was smothened ''slate''...These rocks(apart from being very tempted to buy them and make caves exactly as you do from solid rock pieces...)gave me that idea:to design and mock up a slate ''pebble'',smoothen all exposed edges after unmocking it and then cut its inside pieces to make a cave on its inside...(about as you do with your solid rock caves...)
How do you find this idea?Any suggestion welcome on that and also on the cave network

Haavard,i dont think your interpretation is romantic...How could i think of that when i have found no underwater pictures of its habitat?I just dont know how it is...

Have you found something usefull that shows or describes their habitat?
Thank you for pointing me to that picture...Unfortunately not much can be seen but i can do spot boulders in the middle of the river which means it has a lot of them underwater...But i dont know if underwater these boulders are smooth or if they have many nooks and cranies...What i am going by till now is what Shane describes at his article about Natural catfish aquarium where he says that a biotopically correct settup for Rio Orinoco main river would be a tank with a big pile of dark coloured smooth stones...Thats the only thing i know about how the Orinoco is underwater,no photos,nothing at all

Thats why i am stuck and dont know how to design my settup...If you know of anything more,please share

Thank you very much in advance

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 19 Sep 2007, 23:05

The topography types in rivers and streams are very much the same all over the world. A whitewater stretch with rocks and pebbles in the arctic looks just the same under water as the equivalent in Mexico or somewhere in Afrika.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=2882

If you look closely at the background of this magnificent photograph you can see that there is a lot of current. Not whitewater, but a lot of movement. Especially in the lower left side. Under the trees along the shore you can see rounded rocks. Quite large ones. They are probably in many sizes, and I assume there is fine sand in slower moving sections.

According to the scientific description of Hemiancistrus subviridis the fish lives among granite boulders. This coincides well with the picture. They graze on algae and auswuchs from the rocks. Dissections of the stomack content reveals filamentous algae attached to small grains of granite.

Baensch Catfish Atlas vol. 1 has some nice biotope photograps. I strongly recommend it if the theme interests you.

You have probably seen a lot of films on tv about spawning salmons in canada, Cola penincula, Norway, Scotland etc. Bedrock here and there, boulders, pebbles, sand. I imagine the siderivers to Orinoco where the Hemiancistrus subviridis lives look the same in places.

Haavard Stoere · Post by **Haavard Stoere** » 19 Sep 2007, 23:13

Look at this my friend

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... ies_id=609
The photograph is from the Orinoco system. I bet it is about the same location as the other picture. Sabaj´s pictures are fantastic

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 21 Sep 2007, 09:01

Thank you very much Haavard

You seem to take the time and try to see things at the blurry background on a habitat picture!!!

Unfortunately,although i have seen both pictures in the past(the second one a lot of times in fact,Pseaudancistrus pectegenitor is a dream pleco of mine...from the first time i saw a picture of him at another site where it was solid black with orange cheek spines i fell in love with him

)i was focusing on the fish and not on the background...
Yeah,the second picture is great for seeing the texture of the granite rocks,its very much the same with what you use,although it has another overall shape(all rounded,exactly as you said...)But from seeing the background on the pictures and the shape of the protruding rocks,i am almost certain that some of the rocks have cracks between them giving hiding places about as the ones you are constructing

If only we had access to big rounded granite pieces like the ones of the river

Anyway,i will go searching granite stores to see if i can find anything similar

Does the atlas you say have pictures of the Orinoco river?

If yes,i am definetely going to buy it...

Thank you for all the info Haavard,it seems you are making a beautifull biotopic tank

I will do my best to try and make something equally biotopical looking...

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 22 Sep 2007, 22:47

Ones like this you mean?

From what I can remember the orinoco has reddish coloured sand by the way.
But I could be wrong.
Matt

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 23 Sep 2007, 10:01

Yeah,about like these,just darker colored and a bit bigger if possible...But this size would do too...

Unfortunately i havent found any rounded rocks that big and dark brown-black colored...The biggest basalt rocks i have found are 25cm diametre and i own them

But i would like to find a single really big one,about 40-60cm in diametre and if possible being of rounded granite

I would then cut it accordingly and glue it to the right corner of my tank

It would look great but i am only dreaming...

I dont think i stand a chance to find such a rock here...

barksten · Post by **barksten** » 29 Sep 2007, 10:58

In the cat-eLog you will find lots of habitat pictures. Just take a look at pictures with caption 'H'

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/ca ... p?letter=h

To bad that many of them are to small to actually see something...

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 29 Sep 2007, 14:11

barksten wrote:To bad that many of them are to small to actually see something...

Think about what you are suggesting here. Image size directly uses up our bandwidth. Bigger pics mean slower site or more expensive site. Cat-eLog pictures are, in the main, resized down when I get them to keep operating costs and speed of the site at decent levels.

If everyone that used this forum donated $2 a month, I could have them all full size on a dedicated server...

Jools

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 01 Oct 2007, 20:59

Jools wrote:
If everyone that used this forum donated $2 a month, I could have them all full size on a dedicated server...

Jools

Planet Catfish is on a shared server? I always assumed you were on a dedicated server. This site is really large not to have it's own...

Perhaps we should all seriously consider donating! I know I use my fair share of bandwidth and server queries here!

Sorry for the hijack Kostas...The tank is looking great!

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Oct 2007, 17:51

Thank you very much for your replys

barksten,
Thank you very much for the link

I hadnt find it before...

Jools,
No one blames you for that!

You keep the site free for all and thats very good

But i too think we should start donating...Me first...

Thanks Seedy

Just an update,i took all but the large woods out to have some space to work on the pvc network with more ease and be able to test if it fits before glue sets and its too late and I glued the left small side of the pvc network i will use to have the intakes away from the powerheads and all went as wished fortunately...Tommorow i will be gluing the right small side and the day after tommorow the whole network will be glued together...
Something i would like to ask,how far above the sand substrate should i position the powerhead intakes?They will have sponge prefilters too...

Today i went and did some serious shopping and bought most of the filter media for the sump...I bought 13 boxes of Hobby's Absorbex(750sqm per litre) and ordered a package of 500Bio chem stars...I also bought Eheim Efi Fix(i think..dont remember the name very well...) and 3 large sponges,50X50cm,1 thick and small pored,i thick and large pored and one half the thickness of the others large pored too...I will wash the sump tommorow and then i will put the media in to see how much more biological materials i have to get...
What do you think about the biological materials i bought?Are they in sufficient quantities for my tank or not?
I also bought many of the small stuff i will need such as two digital thermometers(he suggested the Marina Digital thermometers as the most reliable of the digitals...) and 1 Rena thermometer which he said is the most and only reliable of the thermometers and its package says that its max only +-0.5C or 1FSo i think i will put it somewhere to have a good reference for my other thermometers...I also bought most of the piping i will need as well as valves and T's for the returns as i have planned them...

Will take photos and show you soon!!!

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 03 Oct 2007, 07:48

Kostas wrote:Jools,
No one blames you for that! You keep the site free for all and thats very good But i too think we should start donating...Me first...

I know, but when we're discussing something I'd like too, I just want to get the realities of the issue out in the open. Look forward to the donation.

Jools

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 05 Oct 2007, 08:30

Thats very good

You will have the donation soon by the way

How far above the sand do you think i should place the powerhead intakes with sponge prefilters and how far from sand do you think it would be ok to place the powerheads?

Thank you very much in advance

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Oct 2007, 09:37

Since your tank is quite deep, I'd say that you would be OK to put the powerhead intakes at least 10cm (4") above the sand.

Outlets, I would place higher up.

[I have a fluval 4+ filter in a 12" tall, 18" wide tank [the filter just about fits in there standing upright]. The filter is facing the long side of the tank, so it's basicly creating a cross-flow in the tank. The sand at the bottom opposite the filter is always "moving about" [not forming a cloud, but there is a sort of big wavey pattern in the sand that changes from day to day].

--
Mats

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 05 Oct 2007, 10:38

They need to be that high,eh?

I was planning for about 5-7cm the intakes and about 7-10cm the powerheads...Do you think i will have problem with that height?

Interesting what you say with the wavy patern

Its actually funny to see it naturally forming in an aquarium...

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Oct 2007, 10:46

Well, the height of the intakes and outlets is very much a compromise agreement. How much do you NOT want sand to get into the intake (or get blown about by outlets), and how close to the bottom (out of sight, perhaps, and more able to pick up dirt) do you want it.

I tried to go for the safe alternative.

I have literally no gap in my tank with the fluval internal filter - the bottom of the filter is about 1cm (0.5") from the sand. It is not the ideal solution, and I _DO_ find sand in there. But it's not a very expensive filter, and I have spare filters for emergency use.

I also find a small amount of sand in the bottom of my Eheim 2028, which is located a couple of inches over a gravelly bit of the tank bottom in my RIO 400 tank. There is about half the length of the tank of fine round gravel (2-4mm grain size), and half the tank has sand on the bottom. Of course, I have earth-eaters (Satanoperca leucosticta or close relative) in the tank, and they tend to swim around spreading sand and gravel anywhere and everywhere.

--
Mats

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 05 Oct 2007, 11:21

I do have a few pumps in my tanks on platforms, in order to prevent sand from entering the pumps. Thee pums pump 4500 l/hr

I found out that using a 10 cm thick cast concrete stone (covered with a 3 cm thick tile to prevent fishes entering the hoels in the cast concrete stone) prevents almost all sand from entering

The tanks are quite large, so I could easily hide them behind a few large (over 1 foot) stones.

Therefore, I can only agree with Mats, that approx 10 cm will do the job, but I would no go for much less