molpani root or Bogwood?

lewisss · Post by **lewisss** » 29 Aug 2007, 23:08

Hi,
'I am looking to get a wood eating plec but want to clarify if it is bogwood that I have to have, As I have already in the tank loads of molpani root and i do not want to go for months again with yellow water

Thank you

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 29 Aug 2007, 23:23

will eat most types of wood. Mopani and bogwood aren't the same thing, technically speaking, but they will certainly chew on Mopani. They do prefer softer woods - I have bits of Willow in my tank that I collected from the a riverbank (a 4ft x 3in diameter length that was just laying about, newly cut).

Bamboo is another material they will eat - and live in, so if you go to the garden center and get a bamboo stake, cut it to suitable length, that will give them something to chew on.

ALMOST any wood will do.

--
Mats

Post by **Borbi** » 30 Aug 2007, 08:40

Hi,

I have to disagree with Mats regarding the Mopani.
This stuff is known in Germany as "Iron Wood" and that´s what it is like. Who ever tried to saw this type of wood knows how hard it really is. According to this, I cannot believe that there is a catfish out there that can actually eat Mopani. They will of course rasp on it, eat some aufwuchs here and there, but in my experience, I have never noticed any catfish actually eating it (that includes Panaqolus, which you would call dwarf Panaque, Ancistrus and Peckoltia, but no experience with the "true" Panaque).
Therefore, I would recommend some other type of wood if you want to house a wood eating catfish.

Cheers, Sandor

barksten · Post by **barksten** » 01 Sep 2007, 20:23

As so many times before different retailers in different countries call things differently

Here in Sweden mopani wood is soft and "black&white" (or yellow&red-brown)
Something like this:

There is also something called "rock wood" that is REALLY hard.

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 01 Sep 2007, 21:59

For what it is worth, I have both the two-toned wood shown in barksten's post (sold to me as "Swahala" )and a number of pieces of "Malaysian" drift wood (I suspect this is the "iron wood") in my tank with my Panaque sp. L191.

One thing to note is that the "Malaysian" wood has been used in many tanks and has been underwater for the last few years. It has a decomposing outside layer of wood from being in the water for so long.

While I have seen my Panaque clearly "munching" on both types of wood, mine seems to have a very clear preference for the "aged" Malaysian wood.

Here's a pic of him having almost completely rasped the top layer of the wood (and the aufwach growing on it)

Between the teeth marks in the wood and all the "saw-dust" in the tank, I can only assume he is happily eating wood.

...Oh, and I happen to like the look of tannins in the water...So a new piece of wood is something for me to smile about!

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 10:44

Right, here's my 2c.

It is my opinion that in the UK, all types of wood sold for use in aquaria is generically known as bogwood.

In the USA, the same generic term is driftwood.

Mopani is a specific African hardwood often sold because it sinks like a stone with no soaking. I would agree with Borbi, that it is too hard to use with Panaque. Mine very rarely eat it.

The "Malaysian" (not sure if it actually comes from Malaysia) wood is much softer, and is the other wood often for sale. This stuff usually floats until its waterlogged. Panaque prefer this stuff over mopani.

As Mats points out, the best food for Panaque is some fresher softwood that you collect yourself.

All wood will stain the water. If you don't like that, it can be removed by adding carbon to the filter.

Also, make sure your filtration is up to the task. It cannot be under estimated how much crap these fish produce.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Sep 2007, 11:12

Panaque can and do eat mopani...You see the rasp marks and also the wood getting thinner with time...Mine has plugged a hole at the only mopani in his tank that clearly shows he eats it...Of course,mopani isnt the best wood for wood eating plecos as they can only eat a little...The best woods as stated are the softwoods...Personally i prefer the mangrooves that some times are offered semirotten,crumbling as you hold them...They are the best Panaque food...Mine grew 2cm in 2 weeks when i putted a this wood in his tank...

So its the best in my opinion and its very quickly eaten...You really see it becoming smaller and smaller every day...

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2007, 11:51

Perhaps the big Panaque do, but like Borbi, I have seen no evidence that the dwarf Panaque do.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 02 Sep 2007, 12:05

Yes,i am talking about an L190...Not a dwarf Panaque...
But in another tank of mine that i have Hemiancistrus subviridis,Panaque maccus,Rineloricaria eigenmanni and Otocinclus vittatus as plecos,a small piece of mopani i have in there has also been eaten and i think its the Panaque maccus who hides under it...It may have not been eaten very much but i know it has been eaten a bit because it was a two tone wood and now the black inside is becoming visible...But of course more than 3 and a half years have past from the introduction of this wood and so one can say that they can only eat mopanis very slowly,making it a bit difficult to notice short terms...

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Sep 2007, 17:59

I buy the "Malaysian" wood and all of it slowly decays and is soft enough that L204 grind it up and they are a dwarf Panaque. Eight adults come close to generating their own weight in "saw dust" per month.
I also use local driftwood from streams which tends to be about the same. I collect wood that has been buried in sand bars and has been subjected to scouring for many years. They tend to be the remnants of roots and are as dense as the Malaysian wood.

Bamboo is good but I have lost fish which became stuck when trying to get through a hole that has formed at the joint segment of a piece of Bamboo. Something to watch out for with Bamboo.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 03 Sep 2007, 09:38

Let me just add that I cut a piece of mopani when I set up one of my tanks (I wanted a small piece for my wifes little "cube" tank). The formerly flat cut edge is now all rounded and "worn" because of the chewing on the end - and I don't have any large panaque species in my tanks - in fact, the other end of the same piece shows signs of "eating" too, by bristlenoses. However, I do agree that it's not the "ideal food", softer wood is preferrably.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 03 Sep 2007, 16:30

I wonder is it's just an aquarists' thing to be surprised that wood decays in water?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 03 Sep 2007, 16:39

apistomaster wrote:I wonder is it's just an aquarists' thing to be surprised that wood decays in water?

No, I'm aware of that, what I'm trying to say is that he wood is, when it starts to decay, eaten by both bristlenoses and panaques.

--
Mats

bslindgren · Post by **bslindgren** » 04 Sep 2007, 01:47

I think it's likely that you are talking about wood from different tree species. Common names are not reliable at the best of time. Mopane is a South African tree or shrub, Colophospermum mopane, while ironwood refers to a number of different trees - depending on where you are ironwood may refer to anything that is hard or dense. Tropical ironwoods from Asia are in the genus Mesua, while if you read this web site http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plsept99.htm you can see that a number of tree species are referred to as ironwood in other parts of the world. Add to this that trade names are likely to pop up for anything that will be used for a particular purpose. I wouldn't put too much faith in the names attached to pieces of wood found in the aquarium trade. I think that it's a matter of checking what the fish like, and if they do, it doesn't really matter what species of tree it came from.

Post by **Coryman** » 04 Sep 2007, 10:49

It is my belief that the teeth of the wood eating species have primarily evolved to scrape and rasp on the tree species that inhabit their natural habitats, so introducing them to woods that are not native to them to me is not such a good ides, especially the extremely hard woods that are being imported from Africa as decorative aquarium ornaments, which have already lost their soft bark. Yes there are very hard woods to be found in South America, but when dead or broken pieces end up in the rivers where wood eating Loricariids inhabit you will fine that it is the soft outer bark layer that they feed on.
The teeth of wood eating species are produced very much like those of sharks in that they are moving forward all the time with new teeth following behind mature ones and replacing them when they are worn and fall out. From what I am led to believe these fish do not have an endless supply of teeth only producing a certain number during the course of their life, therefore if they are offered these so-called 'Iron' woods the teeth wear will be greatly exaggerated and in all probability the life span of the fish will be greatly reduced.

Another thing that comes to mind with the softer woods, is there is more likelihood of then containing micro organisms that have and will penetrate the looser fibres, making it a better food source altogether. A simple experiment would be to put a piece of each type into the tank and see which the fish actually prefer, my money will be on the soft wood every time.

Ian

Panaque nigrolineatus mouth

Picture courtesy Ian Fuller

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Sep 2007, 11:27

It may well be that larger panaque species eat the bark of certain trees, but in my experience the smaller species such as doesn't chew the bark off the wood - at least not my willow that I have hollowed out to make caves. The living in another piece of the same wood in a different tank have removed about half of the bark off the 3" thick, 8" long piece.

--
Mats

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 04 Sep 2007, 13:25

Is or, I gues, was what you call bogwood (UK-English) the same as "Moorkienwurzel" (German), wich is taken out of a bog/swamp (Moor) and some kind of root (Wurzel)

Of what I found a interesting site in German: http://www.moorkienwurzeln.de/

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 04 Sep 2007, 13:31

It may be the same, but I don't think bogwood is "defined" as any particular type of tree from any particular place, so what you ACTUALLY get may vary depending on several things. But it is wood that has been soaked in tannins under water.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 05 Sep 2007, 09:22

I know mine is mopani, as I collected some of it myself in Zimbabwe.

Post by **Coryman** » 05 Sep 2007, 12:43

My point is, that using the very hard woods as a part of a food sauce for wood eating species is not in the best interest of the fish, because such woods will create faster degeneration of the teeth and as these fish only produce a limited number during their life-span, will effectively shorten their lives.

Ian

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 06 Sep 2007, 08:30

I understand your point...

What you say is really intresting and its the first time i hear something like that being said for Panaque...
I have mine with a large mopani,a really large and rotten mangroove(thats really soft,it crumbles on your hand...),1 Sumatra(hardwood,but softer than the mopani),1 malaysian(hardwood but a bit softer than the mopani) and 2 mahogany(realtively soft) woods and two coconuts and two of the woods tropica grow plants on(Christmass moss was on them but was all gone after some weeks with Panaque...

)...What i have noticed is that he eats from all of these...Of course,the bulk of his diet is the mangroove and the mahogany but he also eats noticable quantitys from the Sumatra and the mopani...The Sumatra is getting thinner day by day and he has plugged a hole on a branch of the mopani(which was thick when i bought it...) thats getting enlarged at least twice a week...I dont pay attention to the Malaysian because its small and has been eaten extensively in the past when i didnt have that many woods...
Coconuts are eaten too and now have become very thin with many holes on them...
So from my experience they eat all woods regardless if they are hard or soft...Of course,the soft ones are prefered but this shows that just offering a variety of woods doesnt help on that matter...They still go for the hard ones too...

Should we remove the hardwoods and leave only soft woods in a tank with Panaque,or having them there and offering them as a variety doesnt hurt?

Thank you very much in advance

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 06 Sep 2007, 09:15

Ian, I'm sure this has probably been covered elsewhere, but what soft woods would you specifically recommend that can be found in easily here North America?

On my property I have access to:
Pecan,
Willow,
Maple,
Cottonwood (I'm sorry these are common names but I know jack-squat about botany

unce: )
Creppemyrtle bush
Mulberry
Pine (I don't know species)
Magnolia tree

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 06 Sep 2007, 19:53

Coryman wrote:My point is, that using the very hard woods as a part of a food sauce for wood eating species is not in the best interest of the fish, because such woods will create faster degeneration of the teeth and as these fish only produce a limited number during their life-span, will effectively shorten their lives.

Ian

Hi Ian,
Your hypothesis just doesn't seem very logical to me.
I think an aquarium specimen derives most all of it's nutrition from the prepared, live, frozen and natural vegetable foods. Wood is mainly roughage they have evolved to digest. It makes more sense to me that in nature the Panaques have evolved to eat the rotting wood to extract the organisms that permeate it. As long as fish are healthy they continue to grow. Replacing lost teeth should not be limited to any particular number. They should continue to grow as long as the fish is healthy. They also incidentally scrape stones in their life for what is on them and not exclusively wood.
This is just my hypothesis.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Sep 2007, 23:08

Seedy wrote:Ian, I'm sure this has probably been covered elsewhere, but what soft woods would you specifically recommend that can be found in easily here North America?

On my property I have access to:
Pecan,
Willow,
Maple,
Cottonwood (I'm sorry these are common names but I know jack-squat about botany unce: )
Creppemyrtle bush
Mulberry
Pine (I don't know species)
Magnolia tree

I'm going to say this:
Willow is fine.
Cottonwood, I think is fine.
Maple is fine (but the wood is quite hard)
Pecan, I think is fine.
Creppermyrtle - Haven't got a clue what that is.
Mulberry - apparently, the sap is hallucinogenic according to Wikipedia
I prefer not to use pine and spruce due to the high levels of resin these woods have.

I think that covers all the trees you mentioned.

I personally use Willow in my tanks at the moment. I also have a type of "Japanese Cherry wood" (red leaves, flower very early in the spring).

--
Mats

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 07 Sep 2007, 00:11

MatsP wrote: Mulberry - apparently, the sap is hallucinogenic according to Wikipedia

Thanks Matsp! Hmmm...hallucinogenic huh...

bslindgren · Post by **bslindgren** » 07 Sep 2007, 06:01

I would stay away from conifers. Even after some time in water they can contain a lot of terpenoids, which are toxic.

Post by **Shane** » 09 Sep 2007, 09:45

My point is, that using the very hard woods as a part of a food sauce for wood eating species is not in the best interest of the fish, because such woods will create faster degeneration of the teeth and as these fish only produce a limited number during their life-span, will effectively shorten their lives.

I am not sure this is true as I have caught as many panaque around submerged hardwood trees as anything else. Nearly all the canoes in South America are made from some type of hardwood (not many softwood trees like pines in the jungle) and there is a reason they call panaque "coma canoa" (canoe eaters). They will chew a hole through the canoe's hull, even if it is made of mahogany.

Ideally, I would agree that it is best to go for the most natural foods possible. That said, one particular experiment on panaque used only cherry wood, not something they would ever encounter in the wild, but the fish grew just as fast as those fed a diet of veggies. It would appear that wood in general is more important than the species of tree the wood came from.

I think the issue with regards to mopani has more to do with how old (and thus soft) the mopani is and what other types of driftwood are available in the tank.

It makes more sense to me that in nature the Panaques have evolved to eat the rotting wood to extract the organisms that permeate it.

It might seem logical, but it is incorrect. Extensive gut content analysis show that wild panaque have only one thing in their gut: wood. Not algae, not micro-organisms, not sponges, not insects, just wood. Captive experiments have confirmed this. Panaque kept in a dark tank (to prevent algae growth) and given only wood to eat will grow as fast or faster than panaque fed aquarium foods, veggies, etc. Variety is not the spice of life for panaque. They just want wood. A panaque species tank with lots of wood would never need to be fed. It just needs a lot of water changes to keep the sawdust under control!
-Shane

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 09 Sep 2007, 10:18

Shane wrote:They will chew a hole through the canoe's hull, even if it is made of mahogany.

Whilst mahogny certainly isn't a soft wood (compared to pine, spruce or balsa), it's actually not very hard either, when it comes to hardwoods. For example oak, I would classify as harder (and mopani is harder too). This is based on my experience from woodworking at school, where we used mahogny for certain types of work.

Of course, like all woods, the hardness varies depending on the conditions during it's growth (fast -> softer, slow -> harder) and possibly other conditions too.

I'm not trying to say that Shane is wrong here, I'm pretty certain that Panaque will eat just about any type of wood, which was essentially what I said in my first post in this thread.

--
Mats

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 09 Sep 2007, 10:23

MatsP wrote:
Shane wrote: I'm pretty certain that Panaque will eat just about any type of wood, which was essentially what I said in my first post in this thread.

--
Mats

Mats, Shane and all the everyone else who has contributed, I have found this to be an extremely helpful and informative thread.

Considering how many types of wood seem to be OK to feed to Panaque spp. perhaps it is better to list out what woods ARE NOT safe to feed them?