First Oto with Ich: Questions before treatment

jaidexl · Post by **jaidexl** » 16 Aug 2007, 02:16

Hi, new here. Sorry it isn't under better circumstances.

1. I have two meds now that I haven't used yet. Methylene blue and Jungle Fungus Clear. I know MB can be used against ich, I've seen the JFC ingredient, nitrofurazone, listed in a few other brands of ich treatment. Which one would you pick?

2. I think I'll be dosing M1+M2 along side to prevent bacterial infection, or should I use the JFC for that? Edit: I just remembered I have Kanamycin soaked spirulina pellets I could feed him, maybe that's enough for bacterial prevention?

3. Obviously, I can't use salt, do any of these meds require smaller doses for scaleless fish? Any med combos here you would avoid?

4. I've read a bit about the ich life cycle, should I warm the tank and wait a day or two for treatment?

Thanks in advance -J

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Aug 2007, 02:31

Well....to start with, Otocinclus species have scales...so I believe salt would still be a good option for you.

If I'm not mistaken the medications like "malachite green" and "nitrofurazone"that are commonly found in "Ich" medications are nastier on scaleless fish than salt

I do not use any medication to treat for "Ich". If you are certain that the infection is "Ich" increase aeration and raise your tanks temp to at least 86F. I would not put any medication in the tank that was not directly indicated by the fish's condition.

aquafeet · Post by **aquafeet** » 16 Aug 2007, 03:47

Seedy wrote:Well....to start with, Otocinclus species have scales...so I believe salt would still be a good option for you.

If I'm not mistaken the medications like "malachite green" and "nitrofurazone"that are commonly found in "Ich" medications are nastier on scaleless fish than salt

I do not use any medication to treat for "Ich". If you are certain that the infection is "Ich" increase aeration and raise your tanks temp to at least 86F. I would not put any medication in the tank that was not directly indicated by the fish's condition.

I agree; heat and salt for ich. Avoid medications whenever you can. I have used salt with otos before with no problems.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 Aug 2007, 13:43

NO CATFISH has scales - Otocinclus are catfish, so they don't have scales. Loricariiade (which includes Oto's) do have bony scutes under the skin, which makes it look like they have scales, but as opposed to scales, they are UNDER the skin.

Heat is definitely a good idea, along with strong aeration of the tank (to compensate for the high temperature which leads to lower oxygen levels in the water). Salt is good way to kill Ich, but I'm not so sure it's good for the fish - there certainly is NO salt anywhere you find Otocinclus species. I'd personally recommend a good Ich-medication, if possible one that is "recommended" for sensitive fish such as "Scaleless fish" - and read the instructions with "scaleless fish" in mind, because often you have to reduce the dose to half for these.

--
Mats

aquafeet · Post by **aquafeet** » 16 Aug 2007, 16:13

MatsP wrote:NO CATFISH has scales - Otocinclus are catfish, so they don't have scales. Loricariiade (which includes Oto's) do have bony scutes under the skin, which makes it look like they have scales, but as opposed to scales, they are UNDER the skin.

Heat is definitely a good idea, along with strong aeration of the tank (to compensate for the high temperature which leads to lower oxygen levels in the water). Salt is good way to kill Ich, but I'm not so sure it's good for the fish - there certainly is NO salt anywhere you find Otocinclus species. I'd personally recommend a good Ich-medication, if possible one that is "recommended" for sensitive fish such as "Scaleless fish" - and read the instructions with "scaleless fish" in mind, because often you have to reduce the dose to half for these.

--
Mats

Oh dear, jaidexl, I am sorry you are getting confusing/conflicting information.

Using salt for treating ich with freshwater fish is perfectly safe and the preferred treatment since it is entirely naturally occuring in most waters of the world. The difference, obviously, is concentration.

Your oto is from the Orinoco river in South America and the water has naturally occuring salts and some not so naturally occuring pollutants.

South American "freshwater" fish are the only fish I keep and I use salt regularly to keep my fish healthy. In fact, for the fish I am not breeding, I put 1 tsp/10g of salt in their water all the time. Even for the breeding fish, I will put a little in.

As for increasing the heat to about 85F this is to speed up the life cycle of the ich so that you can go through the treatment process more quickly. A moderate amount of water flow or air bubbling will be sufficient to keep the water oxygenated. While your oto does water-breathe through gills, he can also breathe air. Too much water flow will jostle your oto about and may wear him out if he's not feeling well. Place a clean rock or plant in the tank so he can hide if he wants to.

Now the key is getting your oto adjusted to the salt and higher heat (1 tsp salt per 10 gallons should work fine - just make sure the salt is entirely dissolved - any salt crystals could hurt your fish). This should be done slowly, over an hour or two.

The best way to adjust your oto is to take him out of the tank with a good amount of water in a container (with a handle that you can hang over the side of the tank is most convenient). Place the container in the hospital tank (already salted and temp at 85F)- be careful that the container does not tip over into the tank. Let the container sit in the tank water until it reaches 85F. Once it has, start dripping water from the hospital tank into the container. When the amount of water has doubled, discard half the water in the container and drip to double the amount again. Then net your oto and put him in the hospital tank.

Keep the hospital tank dark and very clean for 7 days. Do a water change every day using the same concentration of salt (doing it by the gallon is obviously easiest) and be sure the water your using is the same temp also.

Feed him sparingly, algae wafers are probably the easiest because after a few minutes you will need tosuch out what he does not eat so his water stays very clean.

If it's just ich that's the problem, this will take care of it. Please avoid using chemical medications as repeated exposure can increase the tolerance of certain bugs (bugs you may not be treating for at the time). They also get into our own water systems when you discard it. Salt is so much safer and cheaper.

If you wish to verify this information, please contact a moderator on this forum for assurance.

Good luck and keep us posted about what you do and your progress

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 Aug 2007, 16:35

Just because something is naturally occurring doesn't mean that it's "good". Salt (in the form of sodium chloride as we use for salting food) in freshwater is EXTREMELY low concentrations in all South American rivers except close to where the river meets the ocean where it ends - where the tide helps to mix the water into brackish water quite a way into the mouth of most bigger rivers.

There are plenty of examples of naturally occurring substances that are unhealthy - stryknin, cyanic acid to mention just two. Both are letal in very low concentration to just about any animal.

I saw a program about native South American "indians" that were catching fish by adding extract from some plants to the water, this caused the fish to suffocate and make easy pickings - no "artificial" stuff there.

I'm not saying you can't treat ich with salt - but it's a poison to freshwater fish, just like any other chemical addition to your tank - and it's different from other chemicals that you may add in that it's not breaking down very easily, so the only way to get rid of it is by diluting it until it no longer has any effect. Not that making a bit water change after adding any medication is a bad idea.

Finally, as a Forum Moderator, can I just ask why you think that you need to click "Disable BBCode in this post" when posting with quoted text? It makes it really hard to read the quote, as the BBCode itself is visible instead of the quote being visibly marked with smaller text and different background colour. I edited the two posts where you did this previously...

--
Mats

jaidexl · Post by **jaidexl** » 16 Aug 2007, 18:42

Thanks for the tips, everyone. This is a new arrival that is still in QT, and the ich isn't that bad at this point, so I think I will watch him for a week and see how he does in QT without meds. In the meantime I'll correlate the various info I get. Yes, there is quite a bit of conflicting info online, but I can handle it and will do my best to come to my own decision based on all the valuable info I get from forum members.

I was aware that Loricariidae have some type of scaling or armor, so I've always questioned whether or not they're really that sensitive to salt, but at this point I'm still kind of leaning towards the Methylene blue as I've read in a few places that it's a less intense alternative to Malachite green treatment, and is recommended for Otos before MG due to their sensitivity.

So far, I've always been successful at medicating Otos, so hopefully this new guy will keep up the trend. I know a lot of people report lost causes, but luckily I've never experienced it, I like to think it's my low stress methods of corralling and QTing them that plays a big factor there.

Once again, thanks to all and I look forward to more suggestions.

-J

Seedy · Post by **Seedy** » 16 Aug 2007, 21:05

MatsP wrote:NO CATFISH has scales - Otocinclus are catfish, so they don't have scales. Loricariiade (which includes Oto's) do have bony scutes under the skin, which makes it look like they have scales, but as opposed to scales, they are UNDER the skin.

Sorry for the bad info on the scales. Thank you...I always wondered about why the "Plecos" appeared to have scales.