HELP!! Otocinclus showing signs of illness

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 15 Aug 2007, 22:21

~~this is reposted due to an error with my previous user name and a mis-read forum descriptor -- sorry!~~

Hi, I'm brand new to the forum. I have only two Otos in one heavily planted five gallon tank. I do weekly 35% water changes. One of my otos (Thing 2) isn't looking great. It looks like he's got the beginnings of popeye. He's also showing some red around the gill area (which has happened with this oto on and off for the past two months). My other oto (Thing 1) looks perfectly healthy and shows no signs of stress or illness.

I have a 2 gallon hospital tank available, but it's not set up. I know these kids are supposed to be sensitive to medications, so what can I do for him? Should I separate him into the 2.5? How will water changes work in such a small tank? I can feed him zucchini in there, but I don't have any decorations or hiding places. It's just a bare 2 gallon tank. I can get a small whisper filter, but right now I just have a bubbler. I'm also not at all sure I'll be able to cycle the thing (it's a tricky little tank to cycle), and I don't want to subject him to poor water quality right now.

If I dose my main tank, I run the risk of killing my plants, snails, and stressing the other oto -- who has yet to show any signs of illness. Should I just try to keep the water super clean and hope his immune system kicks this on its own? I've had these two li'l guys nearly two months now, and I don't really want to lose them.

More info on my husbandry:

I have a 5 gallon eclipse corner unit with biowheel. Temperature is between 80 and 84 degrees. Ammonia tests nil, Nitrite tests nil, Nitrate is well within safe range at 15ppm. My water is pretty hard and the pH is high, but I've been unsuccessful at finding any way to change that without seeing pretty large fluxuations in my tank conditions, so I quit artificially softening/lowering pH about a year ago. I do not have co2 hooked up, but I've wanted to for awhile. I'm just not comfortable doing it unless all the fish look healthy. I don't like to change their environment if they look unstable.

Plants are ludwigia, hygro, wisteria, java fern, java fern windelov, java moss, aponogeton, and a cardinal something (foreground plant with pinkish & green leaves). I have one 11 watt compact flourescent bulb that's on for eight hours a day. I also have pond snails that have been in the tank far longer than the otos. My substrate is soil and gravel, but I'm thinking of changing to flourite -- again, I'm not keen on changing anything until both these fish look like they can handle a change. I drip acclimated the otos when I got them because I know how sensitive they can be to water changes.

I can't seem to find any information on treating these fish or preventing illness. I'm beside myself. Regarding water conditions -- I can switch to r/o water for awhile over the next few water changes. I can also change water twice weekly instead of once, but I know I probably can't medicate this tank because of the plants. I also know I can't catch these fish without removing the plants and ornaments first, but I am willing to do that if hospitalization is the only answer.

Thanks!

--D'lyse

jaidexl · Post by **jaidexl** » 16 Aug 2007, 02:03

I would avoid treating the main tank.

I've fixed an oto that had both septicemia (the redness) and pop-eye with a 10 day treatment of Maracyn I and Maracyn II together. If you have Kanamycin, you can soak spirulina pellets per the instructions, this will make the food worth more than just requiring more frequent water changes.

In an uncycled hospital tank, you need to test for ammonia daily, as soon as it is detectable you need to change 100% of the water. M I and M II allow partial water changes before daily dosing, this will also help lengthen the time before a 100% change is needed, feeding sparingly will also help. Give him an algae wafer or pellet for only an hour a day, then remove the leftover with a turkey baster when time's up, suck up fecal matter while you're doing that. Scoop the oto into a cup to remove him easily before WCs, sometimes it helps to put a pellet in the cup, then use a long probe (skewer) to poke around and get him to swim toward the cup without freaking him out. To help against ammonai buildup, treat the water with Amquel Plus and Novaqua Plus together if the KH is above 6. If KH is below 6, use Seachem Prime (Amquel Plus will crash pH if KH is too low, but has a longer effect than Prime).

Add some floating plants and cover the tank some so there's not a lot of light coming in, to keep him calm. Don't add too many dying plant leaves as they increase ammonia faster, also remove any that are dying throughout treatment.

I've seen the septicemia come back after reintroduction to the main tank, so I continue Kanamycin soaked spirulina feedings when that happens. You could try this as an alternative to QT, but I have no experience with Kana against pop-eye.

Filtration is not necessary, an airstone will suffice to keep the water column moving.

Hope that helps.. good luck!

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 16 Aug 2007, 03:29

Thanks! I was hoping I wouldn't need to treat the main tank. I really don't like introducing meds to my planted tank, especially if it means dosing animals that don't need medications.

I'm getting married on Friday and am preparing to leave town. I don't have anyone who can medicate or test a hospital tank in my absence, so against my better judgement and comfort, I may have to start all this on Monday when I get back from my honeymoon.

Fortunately, I do have M I&II on hand. I don't have Kanamycin or spirulina pellets. I have sinking algae wafers that these guys won't touch, but I feed real veggies to supplement the tank algae. Is there anything I should watch for with the lone oto left in the tank? I'm sure she'll be lonely, but hopefully she won't stress out and make herself sick.

I don't have enough floating plants to put in a hospice tank (I have about four bits of Watersprite in my main tank, and that's it). I can cover the tank with a scarf to keep light out, but I'm worried that it won't give him any place to feel hidden and secure.

I only have Prime right now -- and hard water. Should I add it more frequently? I'm on a bit of a shoestring budget at the moment. I'm going to try to find a local source for Kanamycin and get myself some spirulina pellets as well, but that might break the bank for something like NovAqua.

I can add the air stone & bubbler. As to starting treatment, I'll do a water change tonight on the main tank and another on Friday after the wedding ceremony (before I leave). Hopefully he'll be okay until Monday when I'm back. Then I'll pull him from the main tank and treat him.

Any tips for catching him in a heavily planted five gallon? He's a lot more skittish than my female. And he knows all the hiding places in those plants.

Thanks so much for the advice. I truly appreciate it. There isn't much out there online about treating these li'l guys.

Thanks again,

D'lyse

aquafeet · Post by **aquafeet** » 16 Aug 2007, 04:09

Set up your hospital tank using water and gravel from your main tank. Voila, the hospital tank is now cycled and you don't have to worry (as much) about an ammonia spike. Follow the instructions on your medications and do the best you can with timing, etc. This is all you can really do.

You're right not to treat the main tank; these medications will kill your snails and likely your plants too.

Treating for popeye is hard because it, in itself, is not a disease. I have experienced it with rams in a newish tank and tried several things but they all failed an in the end all 4 rams died. I don't want to bum you out but just be aware that sometimes no matter what you do, it's just not meant to be. So don't beat yourself up about it.

MOST IMPORTANT: Enjoy your wedding and your honeymoon!

jaidexl · Post by **jaidexl** » 16 Aug 2007, 05:48

To get him out of a heavily planted tank (I had to do the same thing today, lol), this is what I did. Put some sinking food in the front or some food in the water to get the other fish lively, set a net on the gravel facing the front glass, with he handle sticking up leaning on the tank. Take a long skewer and slowly poke it around in the plants to get the oto to swim around to the front without chasing him, when he cruises between the net and glass, hug the net around him, against the glass, and wait for him to swim into the back of the net. Then yank him up and out.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 16 Aug 2007, 08:03

Fleur,

How long have you had the otos?

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 16 Aug 2007, 14:36

racoll wrote:Fleur,

How long have you had the otos?

Two months.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I just wish I could start treatment now. I can't really take much gravel from my main tank since it's holding the plants in.

I might be able to skim a little off the top, but I suspect it might be enough to cycle the 2 gallon. How much would you recommend? I could also rinse the filter pad in the tank. The question is, what do I do to a whisper 3i so the carbon won't eat my meds?

I'm also aware that sometimes treatment doesn't help. I just lost my betta last month to some mysterious general malaise. He didn't show enough visible symptoms to pinpoint a disease.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 Aug 2007, 15:03

Take the carbon out of your filter - if the filter is now "empty", then you have two choices:
1. Find some other filter media that will work in that filter - I have used filter sponge-blocks to cut my own filter pads.
2. Use the filter without media (but make sure that you don't suck ALL the stuff through the impeller, you need something to stop big stuff getting sucked in and potentially stuck.

--
Mats

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 16 Aug 2007, 15:10

In my experience I have never had any success treating the internal bacterial infections.

I agree that medicating your main tank has the potential to do more harm than good.

I would also say you are taking good care of the tank, and I would suspect just old age as the cause of his illness.

I find that most of the fish that I have kept for a long time succumb to an internal bacterial infection as a result of old age.

Longevity is quite varied in fish, which does confuse us when they just get ill for "no reason".

I have a striped talking catfish well over 15 years old (still going strong), and yet many Apistogramma I have bought seldom last 6 months or a year.

A good rule of thumb is that if a fish is large and inactive (like a doradid) it is likely to live a long time. Species that are small and very active are likely to have shorter lifespans.

Betta, especially the line-bred varieties do not often live past a couple of years. They may be six months old when you buy them.

I'm not sure how long otos live, but I would imagine three or four years is about average.

All otos are wild caught, so you don't know how old they were when purchased.

You didn't mention if you offer any supplementary food to the otos? Dietary problems are often the cause of oto problems.

Good luck.

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 16 Aug 2007, 16:19

Thanks racoll. Your words were very comforting. I suspect Jerry was older when I got him. He was a Crowntail with fully developed fins and probably lived in the petstore cup for two weeks (at least) sucking up ammonia and other toxins from the cup of water he called home. My next betta will be from a local breeder/hobbyist. He's the second betta that only lasted a year, both seem to have died of old when you really look at it. I want one with a healthy young life this time.

The otos... ah, where to start. I know that 50% die off is common for these li'l guys. I also know they're wild caught and that means we don't know bunk about their lives before us. Frankly, if I knew they were wild caught before I got them (they were recommended for the algae in my planted tank), I wouldn't have bought them. I generally don't support wild catching unless I know how the fish was caught and who did the catching. Irresponsible practices destroy habitats and kill a lot of animals. I do know that some real enthusiasts have successfully spawned these fish in captivity, just not in great numbers.

Oh, and I do feed them vegetables. They don't recognize the algae wafers as food, so all I can do is feed zucchini and other green veggies. Mostly they prefer zucchini to anything else.

At this point, The water in the tank is pristine. It's going to get another w/c tonight or tomorrow morning. Since I can't treat him now, I'm keeping the water super clean and hoping he'll hang in there. He's still active, eating, and socializing. He also had some reddening in his gills two weeks ago which cleared up on its own before coming back a few days ago, so there's every indication that he's still got an immune system. I love my li'l guys, and I want to provide the best care possible. But I can't hold up a wedding behind it. I don't have any other fish-lunatic friends who can come by and do my medicating for me. *shrug* First thing when I return... hang in there Thing 2!

Thanks to all for your continuing support and advice. I'm new to catfish, and these guys are far touchier than the average betta. Thanks again. Keep the great advice coming.

--D'lyse

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 16 Aug 2007, 17:04

I generally don't support wild catching unless I know how the fish was caught and who did the catching. Irresponsible practices destroy habitats and kill a lot of animals.

Here is an insight....

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... blogid=112

I don't have a problem with wild caught fish provided it is sustainable (it usually is for low demand unusual catfish etc). The trade gives local folk work that is a damn sight more environmentally friendly (although not as lucrative) than mining, logging, soya farming and cattle ranching. The reality is we should pay a lot more for our fish to give people more of an incentive to develop the trade.

Unfortunately the quality of tank bred fish is very poor in my opinion.

I know that 50% die off is common for these li'l guys.

Yes, they are prone to die off when added to your tank, but this is usually in the first couple of weeks or so, and is always food related.

If yours were eating veggies I would suspect this is not a problem.

They are actually quite hardy once settled down.

Perhaps the only thing I could recommend is a larger tank. They also prefer groups of five or more.

If you get any more otos, make sure they have been in the shop for at least a month and that they have been feeding them properly (veggies & flake).

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 16 Aug 2007, 18:17

Mmm... when mixing economy with ecology, there's always a little give and take. For myself, I prefer captive bred. This is mainly because a breeding population is generally a comfortable population. If they're not breeding, there's something missing from their captive habitat that the would be getting if they were still in the wild. I don't like to keep fish unless I know I can provide them with an appropriate habitat. Unfortunately, I was a little mislead on the care of these guys. I'm doing all I can to remedy that, but the deed is already done. I know I can't add more otos to my 5 gallon without stressing my bioload (especially if I adopt a betta girl next month).

I've read that if they live through the first month, they'll probably live a good long time. These li'l guys were at the store for five weeks before I got them, so I did do that part right. I drip acclimated them when I put them in the tank to minimize shock. I didn't have any shock related deaths, but the little guy is sick now, so... *shrug*

As much as I'd love a bigger tank, I just don't have the space. I was perfectly content to keep just a single betta in that five gallon, but someone said a couple otos would take care of any algae and would be perfectly alright in there with as frequently as I do water changes. Live and learn. In the meantime, I'll just have to do what I can to keep these guys alive and healthy. Next time, I'll consult you first rather than the planted tank guy in the store ;).

--D'lyse

jaidexl · Post by **jaidexl** » 16 Aug 2007, 18:50

jaidexl wrote:hug the net around him, against the glass, and wait for him to swim into the back of the net. Then yank him up and out.

In another thread, I just mentioned my low stress methods of corralling Otos and how I think it plays a big part in the success of their treatment, so I deciding to add to what I said earlier since I didn't really like the way I stated it.

After I net them, I don't just yank them out, I pull the net up so it's rim is out of the water, fish still in the water, then slowly work a cup into the net, trying not to stress the fish. They usually swim into the cup and can be scooped out that way without leaving the water, then I dip the cup into the QT tank and let the fish swim out. They're never exposed to air and rarely dart around the cup this way, much less stressful, IMO. Of course, I always make sure QT parameters are close if not identical to the main tank.

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 21 Aug 2007, 20:18

This little guy is going to make me crazy! So... I left for my honeymoon on Saturday morning. Thing 2 had redness in his gills and what looked like it might've been an anchor worm or gill fluke swishing in and out when he moved his gills. I didn't medicate since I wouldn't be able to watch them (and couldn't find any Kandamycin). I fed a few spirulina pellets before I left.

I come home and once again, both fish look fine. Thing 2 has pink gills as does Thing 1. All seems perfectly peachy. This has been happening on and off for the past month. I am now refusing to medicate for this if he's able to fight it off, but what the heck could be causing it? It ~might~ coincide with water changes (as I didn't get to do one before leaving -- I know, bad fish mom). I'll probably do a change tonight or Wednesday. I've been known to use treated tap, R/O, and spring water in the past. Last change was half R/O and half treated tap. I did some replanting last time which may have stirred up some soil. Could that have caused trouble?

I'm going to be switching to Flourite soon. I'll be siphoning off water into the 2 gallon, moving the fish, pulling the plants, and dumping the current substrate. I should have plenty of live bacteria with the bio wheel and the old filter pad. Is there anything else I should keep in mind?

Does anyone have any ideas what might be aggravating him? (It's clearly not causing any problems in Thing 1.)

jaidexl · Post by **jaidexl** » 21 Aug 2007, 23:59

One of my otos gets septicemia off and on regardless of weekly water changes, I mainly use reconstituted RO/DI water which doesn't seem to make a difference. I only treat them when I see pop-eye, otherwise, they've fought it off on their own (with the possible help of feeding medicated spirulina once or twice when I see it). I often run a UV sterilizer in that tank to fight off green water (planted tank), that doesn't seem to make a difference either.

Besides it being a bacterial infection of the blood, and they're most likely bacteria that are always present no matter what we do, I have no idea what brings on the infection or why I've seen so many otos with it. I've read that mollies and barbs often catch it as well, though I have little experience with those fish. I've read that it's usually seen in temp ranges within that of tropical fish, but we obviously can't successfully keep our otos in cold water. The one thing I would venture to guess as a possible culprit is some type of nutrient lack in their diet, or maybe it's just a common population control in certain species.

When you replace your substrate, you'll likely see a substantial mini cycle regardless of your filters, it happened to me even though I had an AC70 with biomax beads as well as a topfin 30 stuffed with bio-beads. You'll see less of a mini cycle if you put some of the old gravel in a nylon sock and lay it on the flourite for a few weeks. It'll also help to do a heavy gravel vac first, then reintroduce the brown mulm before laying the flourite over it.

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 22 Aug 2007, 01:07

Hey, thanks so much for the tips on reducing my tank cycle when I change the substrate! I'll be trying those to keep things healthier for my fishies.

What amuses me most about this illness is that it only occurs in one of my fish. Period. Thing 1 simply doesn't have any trouble. The best I can do is just make sure he doesn't show signs of other serious illnesses. I'll try to keep their nutrition high and see if that helps, but overall, it looks like he's just a chronic case.

My next question is: will this affect a new fish I might add to the tank? I know that, in theory, since it doesn't even appear in the other oto, that it's unlikely to show up in any new fish. However, I'm still concerned. Have you seen this spread to other species in your tank, or is it just otocinclus? This planted tank was originally set up to house one docile betta. I hope to get another one -- a community-raised female, so she shouldn't even notice the otos -- but I don't want to overtax Thing 2 or make a juvenile betta sick.

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 26 Aug 2007, 09:35

So, I have been watching the fish since the redness in his gills went away. For two days, I had trouble finding him. This evening, he is on the tank. His gills are not red, but he is completely swolen up. I will pull him from the tank tomorrow morning. *sigh*

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 26 Aug 2007, 15:30

My experience is much the same as racolls's, popeye symptoms and the internal bacterial diseases that are implicated are not usually successfully treated.

In some cases popeye will resolve itself but that is rare.

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 26 Aug 2007, 19:56

Well, I'll do my w/c and try to get him out of the tank and into a hospital tank. I might just keep the water super clean and see if he improves since treatment doesn't often help. Based on his bloating, he might have some organ stress as well, so odds are antibiotics would just overstress his little kidneys. I'm concerned about leaving him in there as bad as he looks. I'm not optimistic, but I'll try.

I wonder if I should try to find someone in the area to adopt my remaining oto. I don't think she'll be happy on her own, and I don't know that I have an ideal environment for her. I don't want to buy another fish to keep her company when I know my tank isn't really more than barely adequate. *shrug* She'll have to get through QT wherever she goes from here, but still... it would also eliminate any issues with a mini cycle when I change the substrate.

Fleur · Post by **Fleur** » 28 Aug 2007, 14:37

Well, Thing 2 has passed away.

Poor little guy. I still have Thing 1, though, but now she is all alone. I am trying to find someone local who will QT her and add her to their shoal, but so far no takers. I would rather not add more otos since I now suspect that my setup is not ideal. Keep your fingers crossed for me, okay?

Any hints or tips on keeping her as happy as possible would be greatly appreciated.