One more 'panaque vs food' question

[featherback]

I am quite experienced with panaques by now and I have saved quite a few from death by starvaton. But my new 20 cm L330 refuse to gain weight, I have tried a lot of greens (potatoes, squash, peas, carrots etc etc) and filled them with algae wafers. But still it continues to lose weight. Of course it has a variety of woods to choose from ('malaysian hardwood', lianas, oak twigs and some soft old wooden ex-christmas decoration that my other panaques really love ).

It's really hungry and seeks out any food I add to the tank. So my question is simple, I want to try offering the stems of what we call Yucca Palms (they were a 80s phenomenon ,but they still sell them ). It is the closest thing I come to finding palm stems here. It might be any species of Yucca, probably Y. elephantipes or a it may actually be a Dracaena species. I'm not very good at botanics. There should be a plantbase, like fishbase.

Anyway, does anyone have any objections/thoughts to why it might not be a good idea? Like, does anyone know if they are poisnous?

I am slightly squiffy so I hope this makes sense.

FB

[Shane]

It should work well. Collectors of P. cochliodon in the Rio Magdalena baited their traps with yucca. I think that basically anything (fruit, veggie or starch) fit for human consumption is worth a try.

In the case of panaque that have trouble putting on weight... There is a theory (and I think it is likely correct) that heavy medications can kill the bacteria in the panaque's gut that allow it to digest wood. The fish could have been over medicated anywhere along the commercial route it took to your tank.

You might try placing the fish with other healthy wood eaters. The idea being that it will obtain the bacteria again by munching on the droppings of its tankmates. It would certainly be worth a try.
-Shane

[featherback]

Hi Shane, thank you for answering. I know you have mentioned before that collectors baited their traps with yuca, but I understood that you used yuca as another word for manioc. I am a little confused. This is what I am talking about (this time):



Wikipedia says this: "...yuccas also bear edible parts, including fruits, seeds, flowers, flowering stems, and more rarely roots, but use of these is sufficiently limited that references to yucca as food more often than not stem from confusion with the similarly spelled but botanically unrelated yuca."

I see that several poison control sites list some yucca species as posionous, but most put all yucca species in the 'Safe Plant' category.

The fish in question is in the same tank as 5 other very healthy panaques. I had do medicate it against fish lice when I first got it, hopefully it diden't ruin it's gut flora.

[Shane]

I know you have mentioned before that collectors baited their traps with yuca, but I understood that you used yuca as another word for manioc. I am a little confused. This is what I am talking about (this time):

We must be having a language thing here... My understanding (and Wikipedia says the same thing) is that yuca, casava, cassava, and manioc are all the same thing. Wiki says that the Swedish word is "maniok." These are all general terms for a group of edible plants. I think it is analogous to the fact that the English word "banana" refers to all spp of banana while in Spanish there are different words for every banana sp. By yuca I mean any of the half dozen edible types you find in the grocery store or at McDonalds in Venezuela.
I have seen lots of yuca crops and eaten wild yuca in the Amazon and never seen a yuca that looks like the above photo you posted. It looks more like a tomato or marijuana plant. You just pull it up, clean it off, boil it a bit and eat it.
Here is a link to someplace in Europe that sells yuca over the net.
http://www.hipernatural.com/es/pltyuca.html

[Bas Pels]

Shane,

Thank you for your posting.If I go to the flowershop asking for Yucca, I get the plant in Featherback picture.

In feat, it is new to me cassave and yucca are the same. Anyway, Europeans be warned about this Yucca problem

Bas

[Seedy]

The confusion does not extend just to European readers! I have lived in Southern California where we have a plant commonly called "yucca" that is similiar to the plant pictured by featherback also! When I hear "yucca" I think of the spiny, almost cactus like plants that dot the hillsides of southen California. Every few years or so, they bloom sending up tall(like 10ft tall) stalks with whitish flowers...

[Shane]

I think I have this figured out and, no surprise to us fish people, it is a question of common name versus scientific name.

Yucca (note, it should be capitalized and italicized as it is a genus) refers to a genus of 40-50 spp of agave plants (family Agavaceae). It is pronounced "YUCK-uh."

Yuca (aka manioc, casava, tapioca root, etc) refers to Manihot esculenta, a plant of the family Euphorbiaceae. It is pronounced "You-KA." Part of the problem is that in Spanish it is usually spelled yuca, but also yucca as the extra "C" in Spanish does not change the pronunciation.

From Cook's Thesauraus:
cassava = casava = manioc = mandioca = tapioca root = yucca = yucca root = yuca root = Brazilian arrowroot Pronunciation: kuh-SAH-vuh Notes: People in Hispanic countries use cassavas much like Americans use potatoes. There's both a sweet and a bitter variety of cassava. The sweet one can be eaten raw, but the bitter one requires cooking to destroy the harmful prussic acid it contains. It's often best to buy frozen cassava, since the fresh kind is hard to peel. Look for it in Hispanic markets. It doesn't store well, so use it within a day or two of purchase. Substitutes: malanga OR dasheen OR potato (not as gluey)

-Shane

[featherback]

To make things worse. In this post I actually ment Yucca, the palm-like houseplant.

The problem I keep on getting back to is: (And this is only my guess) From what I have observed it seems that panaques can set themselves a wood eating mode and a greens mode. If I don't offer veggies for weeks my panaques consume enormous amounts of wood, and does not lose weight. And if I start feeding greens or algae wafers regularly, it seems to instantly flush out their intestines, and they lose a much of the interest in wood. The result is hollowing bellies and slightly sunken eyes, even though they constantly eat greens.
If this is actually true or it's just a side effect of veggies not being a significant part of their diet, I don't know. But my guess is; they don't benefit much from greens and it's not natural for them to find much of it in the wild.

I am convinced that wood only is the best way to go, but I feel a little lost with the skinny guys, as I don't think I have been able to find any wood good enough for them to actually gain the weight and strenght they need. And when I occationally offer greens or algae wafers they jojo between getting a full stomach of wood and being flushed out by greens. On the other hand I think building up a good gut flora takes some time and they may be too far gone to build up on (prro/wrong) wood only.

That's why I am looking for some soft palm-like stems that might hit the nail. And then I got the idea of Yucca-palm stems, as it is the only palm like thing I have access to.

Someone should chop ut managable pieces Scheelea phalerata and sell them as panaque wood.

Sorry for the typos.

FB

[Erlend D Bertelsen]

http://www.springerlink.com/content/pr7 ... lltext.pdf

E

[featherback]

Erlend: Takk

[Seedy]

I guess I'm a little confused still. I am somewhat new to keeping Panaques (at least keeping them correctly ) and I have recently aquired a fish sold as P. nigrolineatus, however I am pretty sure I actually have L191 since the eyes are not red.

If I read above, it seems that what featherback is suggesting is that Panaques that are provided plenty of wood, and NOT supplemented with zucchinni, peas, wafers, potatoes, palm hear, yuca etc do better than those fed the wide variety.

Is this something that the forum and Panaque keepers in general believe? If so, it sounds like I need to just let the fish eat the diferrent kinds of wood I have provided and lay off the veggies...

Thoughts?

[featherback]

Speedy: That is exactly what I am suggesting. But, not necessarily any wood, I am interested in testing any (coconut) palm relative, but of course I can't find them here.

FB

[barksten]

Interesting topic. I had to make some comments to it:

1. The root-fruit, here in Sweden it' called cassava, is poisonous until you cook it. At least the spices that I've seen for sale here in Sweden.

2. Shane, very clever theory about the missing digestive bacteria.

3. Aren't Panaque's very aggressive to each other? Is it a good idea to have several in the same tank? (except very small ones I suppose)

4. My Panaque switch from wood -> squash ( or zucchini... ) -> carrots -> wood without problem.

[Seedy]

So, which of the "yucca" is this made of?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... &N=0&Nty=1

[Seedy]

[featherback]

The palm imo.

The mystery of the L330 is now solved, it died from some worm-like parasites. I'm now sure that my observations were correct but based on the wrong assumptions. Since I had treated it for worms several times I trusted that it was clean. What happend imo is that when the fish were on a wood-only diet the parasite did not get enough food to do any lethal damage. BUT when feeding on nutritious wafers and greens the parasites grew and starved the fish.

However, it doesen't change my view. Wood only is the way to go.

If anyone wants a shot at parasite identification, look at this link, over at plecofanatics: http://www.plecofanatics.com/forum/show ... hp?t=39675

FB