L201s have serious case of bloat

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:22

i have some bloat in my colony of 8 x L201s that i recieved 2 weeks ago. They arrived in water that had dropped to 16 degrees celcius and were very lethargic with servere bloat. I have them alone in a 400ltr/100gallon tank no substrate and just 5 breeding caves and a couple of ornaments for them to hide in. But still possible for me to see them all with a torch. So far no deaths. But there is hardly any poo and when there is some it is white to pale colour and only a couple of 1/4 inch strands. The water parameters are 6.5 ph, almost nil nitrates and nitrites. running two 1200ltr an hour cannister filters with extra current provided with 4500 ltr an hour power head. When they first arrived feeding was minimal for first 2 days and was vacumed up every morning with a very minimal amount consumed. Feeding was then suspended for 4 days. small amounts of food have been given for the past week and is completly gone by morning. The fish are more mobile but the bloat is still very bad, i would say there is no improvement in the bloat.

1. Water parameters
a) Temerature range: 28 celcius.
b) pH: 6.5
c) GH:
d) KH:
e)Ammonia: zero.
Nitrate: almost zero.
Nitrite: almost zero.
Tests done with nutrafin test kits and all below the minimum colour
f) Water change frequency: every second day. 10% water change with fresh rain water. currently winter here and have rain water tank specialy for my catfish.
2. Tank set up
a) Size: 48 inches x 24 inches x 24 inches, 400L. tank
b) Substrate: Bare bottom
c) Filtration: Two cannister filters powered by 1200L./Hr. canister filled with cotton pads and carbon, ceramic noodles, zeolite, and peat to serve as mechanical & chemical filter plus power head creating extra 4500ltr hour current
d) Five clay breeding caves for catfishes
e) No other tank mates:
f) How long has it been set-up: 3 weeks
g) When was the last new fish added: all added at same time
h) Foods used and frequency: currently feed 6 hikari carnivore pellets a day and have feed twice in the last week with a small portion of frozen blood womens
3. Symptoms / Problem description:
a)Bloated stomache,
b)lethargic but improving
c)defaecating is white to pale colour and only a couple of 1/4 inch strands a day seen.
4. Action taken:
a)food restricted for first week
b)water change every second day of 10%
5. Medications used: none yet

Thank you for your help

and the fish will thank you even more

Post by **Barbie** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:31

Rinse out a sponge or media in the tank from an established tank. Any nitrite reading at all can be causing them serious distress. Are you using only rain water? If so, you're also putting them in serious danger of crashing the pH, not to mention there will be absolutely no hardness, which could also be causing part of their imbalance. L201 will eat some vegetable matter, IME, so you might add an algae wafer or two and see if that could help as well.

Barbie

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 16:56

yes only rain water

i check PH, nitrites, nitrates daily.

nitrites and nitrates below the lowest possible reading on the colour scale on the hagen test sheet.

ph is 6.5

I gave them some crushed peas during the first two days after they arrived and i will give them some more tonight.

They are more mobile and have definatly started to eat, just they are so bloated and almost no poo to be seen.

The tank is still cycling, i did add hagen cycle to help cycle the tank, I am not keen to add any sponge media from another tank incase i introduce anything to them, while they are in there weakened condition.

Do you think a piece of limestone might be a good idea or just use tap water. mixed with the rain water. I will also give them a couple of hikari algea wafers

Thank you Barbie

Post by **Barbie** » 01 Aug 2007, 17:36

I'd just add tap water to get the TDS up to 100ppm or so, if they were mine. Knowing what the kH is will also help, as then you know how stable the water will stay. The way it is now, all the waste added to the tank is directly acidifying the water and that can go seriously wrong if you should lose one and not notice right away.

Cycling the tank with south american fish in it is a SERIOUSLY bad idea. The chance of introducing something potentially bad from another tank is WAY less risk than making them deal with what you KNOW is already in there, no? If the fish in the other tank are healthy, then use the media. Hagen Cycle is worthless, IMO. The only cycling product I've personally seen appreciable results from was Marineland's refrigerated BioSpira.

Barbie

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 17:40

it is midnight here

I just went into the room the L201s are in, I went in with small torch and most of them where out looking for food and when they seen the torch a couple scattered like scared rabbits. so they seem to be moving around ok but most of them look like more like toads with fins. Not catfish. droped 2 algea wafers in and will check on them in 30 minutes. the peas are defrosting and will drop them in when i go to check the algea wafers.

will add tap water in the morning

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 17:51

I have a tank that has a small filter in it as well as a canister and that has my zebras in. I feel confident that is very clean tank and has nothing introduced into it for over 3 months. I will take the small filter out and rinse it in some water from the zeb tank then poor that water into the L201 tank. I am very cautious about cross contamination. All my tanks have there own gravel vacums and nets and nothing gets used on another tank each tank gets it own set.

I kept these L201s seperate as my quarantine tank was battling another outbreak of whitespot in some fish i got from another person several days before. when i seen the condition they were in i didnt want to expose them to whitespot as i feared it would have killed them
i will check the KH and GH

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Aug 2007, 18:14

My pleco Guru is Barbie so of course I support her advice. Just do get the TDS up. Osmotic pressure differential between the fish's internal/blood dissolved electrolytes and pure water causes a net flow that is favoring absorbtion of pure water and dilution of the normal internal chemistry. Balance in the gradient is essential to organ functions.

Beyond the immediate physiological issues is the difficulty in stabilizing pH with insufficient buffering capacity and you do need that established biofilter, too.
I happen to like L201/H.contradens so I wish you success. It is also possible that you have perfectly healthy but very gravid females.

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 18:21

i hope they are gravid.

Just never seen a catfish look so fat.

they do seem active but the lack of poo is what really worries me.

Plecos are poo machines

just to check the TDS is total dissolved salts and you recomend 100 parts per million.

how is the best way to check

just read what GH is measured in

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 18:58

just done 10% waterchange with tap water, will do another tomorrow. I dont want to change any water parameters to rapidly.

Cleaned the small sponge filter from my zeb tank and luckily it was due a clean, so there was plenty of seed bacteria. I have dirty tank water now

any more advice would be greatly apreciated.

I am still very worried about the lack of poo.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 01 Aug 2007, 19:09

Hi,
One degree of GH is approximately equal to 17.5 ppm TDS.
Close enough for you to adjust your water.

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 01 Aug 2007, 21:16

60 ppm GH

30 ppm KH

taksan · Post by **taksan** » 02 Aug 2007, 05:58

3 day course of Octazin @ twice the recommended dose.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Aug 2007, 14:43

dannyboyau wrote:60 ppm GH

30 ppm KH

I must be confusing the ppm/17.5=GH with a different conversion.
Apologies.

From my Water Dept:
To convert hardness in mg/L to grains per gallon(grain/gal)divide by 17.12 mg/L(mg/L)
This is what I was thinking. Never do it so I don't know what made me think this way.

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 02 Aug 2007, 15:39

thank mate

The nutafin/hagen water test kit for GH/KH when i read the book it referred to TSD in PPM

Did some research and i can buy a conductivty meter so i will get one of those much easier to check then. Just have to disinfect after every use.

I have fed them 3 crushed peas and two algea wafers last night.

did another water change today and fed 2 algea wafers at lights out.

Just checked there is the most poo i have seen since i got them( still not alot), given 4 more algea wafers.

Will vacum tomorrow and do 5% water change.

Still look way to fat to me, but they seem to be moving about ok.

I am a bit worried that they could have internal parasite or worms.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Aug 2007, 15:42

If you add together the ppm from the KH and GH test kits you can get a reading close (a bit less) to that of a TDS meter (at least I can with my water anyway).

The GH test kit measures calcium and magnesium, and the KH kit measures alkalinity (mainly carbonates). These together tend to make up the bulk of the water hardening minerals. The only major things usually left are sodium, potassium and the rest of the trace minerals.

Have a read of my water chemistry article here.

Boots n all · Post by **Boots n all** » 02 Aug 2007, 23:11

l would go back and turn the temp down on the tank to about 26, l have found 28 just abit on the high side.
Remember These guys tend to be a bit "Tuby" especially the females.
l agree with the others the lack of salts can have big effect on the fish, we use tap water, l would go as far as removing the peat from the filter also.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 04 Aug 2007, 16:39

I find L201 to prefer more animal protein than vegetable foods. Mine eat large quantities of live black worms, frozen blood worms and I also use a lot of earthworm flakes and sticks. Mine will let algae tabs be until they are covered with mold, FWIW.

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 07 Aug 2007, 03:22

I got my conductivity pen today, I love Ebay. If only we could buy catfish from Ebay, In Australia the cost of a nice Lnumber is ridiculous.

The TDS is on 130ppm in the L201s tank.

Our Tap water here has a TDS of 410ppm.

They still have severe Bloat and still very little poo in the morning.

Currently waiting on some clout to arrive from the USA, hopefully it will make it through customs and quarantine. I have some Metronidazole and Levamisole Hydrochloride, i dont want to use the Metronidazole till i have the clout then i can use them together.

Could the experts please tell me if it would be a good idea to hit them with the Levamisole Hydrochloride before i use the clout or afterwards or at the same time.

Thank You

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 07 Aug 2007, 03:24

i did forget to mention that i treat all rainwater with a amazon water buffer so it has the right trace elements.

aquafeet · Post by **aquafeet** » 15 Aug 2007, 15:27

how are they doing?

dannyboyau · Post by **dannyboyau** » 16 Aug 2007, 03:49

They are still all alive

Treated twice with clout and since the clout treatment the amount of poo has increased. The poo is blue colour.

They are still very bloated and i am going to run there water through carbon for 2 days to clear any chemical residue, then treat with Big L and make sure they dont have worm infestation.