Please Help! ICH and other problems out of control

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 18 Jun 2007, 02:41

In the last 48 hours I have lost 1 Upside Down, 1 Cory, and 2 Ghosts (and the 3rd is on his way out)

The Upside Down had ICH so I treated the tank with meds. I also noticed my Otto had it really bad. It all cleared up and I thought for once everything turned out ok (except the death of the Upside down)
Yesterday the Cory died, followed by 2 Ghosts in the last 12 hours.

My Pictus has red by his gills and fins. I read somewhere that this could be from ammonia levels (had to take the filter out to treat the ICH) so I put that back in.
The Otto seems content, the Pictus is active yet red, Mutt Syno seems to be ok, and the other Cory seems fine as well.

What is strange are these things that almost look like bubbles (but are cloudy) that are clinging to the glass and plants. They move with the current somewhat. I took a picture, maybe that will help.

[/img]http://onfinite.com/libraries/1191675/69a.jpg[img]

Thanks to anyone who can help!

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 18 Jun 2007, 02:43

Well i just don't have any luck it seems tonight...here is another try at that photo:

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 20 Jun 2007, 09:56

Yikes! I'm so sorry for your losses. I know how stressful it is. I wish I could identify those things on the glass. Are you sure they are not eggs of some kind? Maybe snail eggs that came in on one of your plants?

Red gills could be ammonia or nitrite poisoning, but when my fish had it I think it was some sort of gill disease possibly from flukes. Before treating the tank it helps to know what your ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels are, the pH, the temperature, and how long the tank has been set up and a little bit about the fish--like how long you have had them, whether you had any new additions.

That's the info I had to provide when my fish were sick, so that folks here could advise me better. I apologize in advance if you have already provided this information elsewhere here. I have been away from this forum awhile and just catching up on a few posts and not following threads like I used to.

Oh, and don't forget to list exactly what medications and treatments you have used. Maybe I or others can suggest something you have not tried yet. I've had ick breakouts in a betta, a danio, and my new goldfish had ich when I bought them, and I hadn't even realized this disease was still fatal with the treatments available today. I eradicated ich by turning up the temperature to 78F in the goldfish tank, 82F in the betta tank, and 80F in the cory tank. I keep it at those levels for a couple of weeks. The only fish who needed medication was the betta and two of the 3 goldfish. Their cases were more persistent. Salt worked on one goldfish and Jungle Buddies Anti Ich tablet worked on another goldfish and two bettas I've treated.

A couple of times when I felt I was dealing with something else besides ich, but couldn't tell exactly what--perhaps gill flukes or some other parasite I couldn't see, I suctioned out all substrate after a few days, and scrubbed down the glass, and removed and treated plants separately. Some plants I discarded altogether. I know this sounds drastic, but I'm really good at doing this without upsetting the fish too much and when they are all well again I slip in some new gravel very gradually and they're good to go. I got practiced at this before when my fish were not sick, but I just wanted to change their environment around a little. I found taking them out of the tank was more stressful than redecorating while they were still in it. When they're in it, they like to nibble my fingers and investigate what I'm doing.

I've used Jungle Buddies Anti-Ich medication with great results on more persistent cases of ich and on a bad case of velvet in one betta that ended up dying of other causes. Salt works with most fish, too, and I've not had any problems with cories tolerating it. But oddly enough, salt makes one of my goldfish very unhappy and rather ill looking, so I try heat first before adding anything to the water. Sometimes heat alone is sufficient, but if you're starting in the low 70's, work up slowly to the maximum you think your fish can tolerate. Watch closely for signs heat is stressing them.

I have a bit of a migraine coming on and I'm exhausted, so I have to go now before I get totally incoherent. I wish you luck. I wish I could be of more help. I'm sorry if my post is hard to follow. I'm pretty wiped out and about to head off to sleep.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 20 Jun 2007, 09:57

Oops...just caught something in my post that made no sense--I asked are they snail eggs that came in on one of your plants. Duh...if they came in on plants then how the heck would they get in on the glass. I MEANT, snail eggs that came from snails that might have sneaked in on some plants. Sorry! Friends don't let friends post when tired!

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 20 Jun 2007, 13:55

Thanks for the reply.

I've had the Pictus since March, the Syno and Otto since Mid-May, and the Cory since early June.

I took care of the ich with the Jungle Buddies earlier on the weekend, and none of the fish are showing any symptoms anymore. The Otto had it the worst, and now he seems to be doing the best.

I went to a local petshop and had them check my levels and they said everything was normal. (I went in 10 mins before closing so they weren't too particular) I'm thinking about getting my own test kit.

The red on the Pictus is not as apparent on the tail and fins anymore, but the gills are still a little bit red (but I think there is an improvement).

The things on the glass do look like eggs, however, I have fake plants in my tank. (Though my outdoor pond does have a water hyacinth and I put one of those in for a few days a week or two ago, but then I took it out) So it is a possibility that they are snail eggs from the goldfish pond. I'm not too worried, as every once in awhile I see the Otto eating them.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 20 Jun 2007, 15:51

Your substrate is way too coarse for an aquarium, especially one set up for catfish. It is almost a perfect dirt trap, like marbls stacked three high. A med coarse sand or sand and gravel mix is better. Those interstices between the coarse gravel work against you and are not very friendly to the barbels of catfish.

There may be a relationship between the possibly high bacterial populations and the signs of inflammation on the Pictus you described.

Just something to think about.

Lornek8 · Post by **Lornek8** » 20 Jun 2007, 17:49

You said you took the filter off the tank to treat the ich (usually don't need to do so unless it contains carbon). How long was the filter off the tank?

Where did you put the filter during this time? Was it running on another tank?

When was the water test done? Was it prior to putting the filter back or after?

BTW its not a good idea to put the pond plants into the aquarium, it's a great way to spread/introduce disease.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 20 Jun 2007, 18:34

Lornek8 wrote:You said you took the filter off the tank to treat the ich (usually don't need to do so unless it contains carbon). How long was the filter off the tank?

Where did you put the filter during this time? Was it running on another tank?

When was the water test done? Was it prior to putting the filter back or after?

BTW its not a good idea to put the pond plants into the aquarium, it's a great way to spread/introduce disease.

For Question #1: I took out the filter pouch which had carbon in it. It was out for about 3 1/2 days. After this I noticed the ich had cleared up but noticed the red on the pictus, and I read here it could be from high ammonia, so I put the pouch back in. While it was out, the pouch was sitting in a container.

Question #2: I put the filter pouch back in Saturday afternoon and the water test was done late Monday night.

I realized the issue with the pond plant and got it out of there quickly. It was in there for about a day, but that was nearly 3 weeks ago and there seemed to be no ill effects.

For the substrate...I kept on reading sand would be the best choice. I then went to two different stores and they both told me that sand is only for salt water tanks and that this kind of gravel is the best choice.
Last time I ever listen to them!!!

The Pictus spends the most time on the substrate, so it could be irritation. The Syno used to lie on the substrate, but lately hangs around the airstone tubing on the back wall (maybe the substrate started getting to him as well.) The otto is always on the glass or rocks, and the Cory usually is swimming.

Any easy way to add sand to an already filled tank?

Should I empty the water from the tank into an extra 10 gallon tank, move the fish over to this holding tank...add the sand and then refill it with the tank water? Or do I put in all new water?
I really do not want to stress them out, they've already had to deal with Ich and medication. I don't want to make the problem worse.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 21 Jun 2007, 01:10

Latest Update with Good News and Bad News:

The Good News:
Checked on the Pictus and I have to say in the last 12 hrs there has been even more improvement. He just has a little pink around the mouth and gills. Everything else is nearly back to normal.

The Bad News:
It appears my Spotted Cory has some sort of fungus on his head. It almost looks similar to the stuff growing on the plants, just a little more wispy. He was hanging out in the plants, so it could be they they rubbed off on him. He is eating and is very active.

Should I treat with Pimafix, just in case it is some sort of fungus?

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 21 Jun 2007, 16:03

Eeeks, sounds like Columnaris:
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/columnaris.html

Google "Columnaris" for more information. My goldfish seemed to come down with this once during quarantine in their 5 gallon. The tank had been cycled but had lost its bio capacity after I had treated with some kind of Jungle Buddies--don't remember which one...sorry.

Anyway there was an ammonia and nitrite spike and within hours one of the goldfish came down with fuzzy coating. There was a fuzzy coating on a plant--I didn't think too much of it at first but tossed the plant as soon as I saw the goldfish had the same thing on him. They all 3 got pop-eye. And the two moors were swimming sideways. I thought I was going to lose all 3 of them, but I did a series of water changes throughout the day so that the net effect was a 100 percent change by the end of the day. (The first water change being 40%) and adding zeolite to absorb ammonia, too.

I threw in the appropriate dose of Jungle Buddies Anti Fungal treatment (it also kills bacteria). Amazingly enough the goldfish recovered immediately and are now safe and happy in their 50 gallon new home. But that's goldfish for you--they're tough.

I don't know how to treat Columnaris on catfish. I would assume the Jungle Buddies would help them as well. I have tried Maracyn, Maracyn 2 during problems with my goldfish and a betta and Jungle Buddies products were the only ones that worked.

However you MUST make sure you have a LOT of oxygen in your tank to help the medicine do its job. I could not cure my betta of fin rot until I got him a tank with an air stone. Add more bubble stones and a good strong air pump (I have good luck with the Whisper 60, blue, looks like a UFO).

It sounds like you have some serious water quality problems, because that's what happened to me trying to keep 3 goldfish in a 5 gallon tank. They were all small, less than an inch minus tail, but goldfish put out an amazing amount of ammonia for their size. Like I said, I saw all at once pop-eye, fuzz, swim bladder issues, oh, yeah, I forgot--septicemia too. My goldfish had come from the LFS already in bad shape because it is almost impossible to get goldfish from the LFS that are in good shape. They are overcrowded there, usually. I could see sick and dying goldies in the tank I got mine from but I took a chance on my 3 guys because by this time, I have handled enough sick fish the prospect of recuperating these guys didn't faze me. I knew 5 gallons was inadequate capacity but I was prepared to throw them into a 20, however their 50 gallon tank and equipment arrived promptly and in they went, with a pre-cycled filter courtesy of my catfish tank.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 21 Jun 2007, 16:17

I wanted to add that your tank looks small. My profile is not up to date, but right now the betta is in the 5 gallon tank that the goldfish was in. I simply could not keep him healthy in the 2.5 gallon. It was hard to get proper filtration and aeration going in a tank that small, and contrary to popular opinion, bettas DO need aeration and filtration. Maybe in the wild they don't, but the fancy bettas get fin rot so easily in stagnant water.

That's 5 gallons for just ONE itty bitty fish, and it's just adequate. And I once kept 2 of my peppered cories in a 3 gallon Eclipse tank as a quarantine. Not adequate at all. I now have a 5 gallon plastic tub for hospital/quarantine purposes.

It is really hard to keep a stable environment in the smaller tanks unless you are going to go with small fish like white clouds or the smaller Danios. I wouldn't try to keep a pictus in anything less than a 20 gallon long to start with, and they will need more than that as they grow.

Also, unfortunately with most medicines, you will lose some or all of your beneficial bacteria. So you likely are going through a cycle now. Keep changing the water, and put in some Seachem Stability to help get your bacteria going again (but after you get the illness under control).

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 21 Jun 2007, 16:48

I put in some Pimafix last night and that seemed to do the trick, as he looks better this morning. He didn't have any swimming issues, and he has been eating.

I have them in a 10 gallon right now, but I am looking to switch to a 20 eventually.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 22 Jun 2007, 05:58

Oh that's great, I'm glad to hear he's doing better! I've never tried PimaFix before. I may get some of the Pimafix to keep on hand for my goldfish. They seem like they are illness factories. They may not get sick themselves, but it seems like they harbor every kind of opportunistic parasite and bacteria. I have no problem using cultured media from my established catfish tank in with the goldfish but it is not likely I'll ever let anything used for the goldfish tank touch the catfish tank. Last week when I tried to bring the tank temp down to a more goldfishy cooler temp, my oranda broke out in a couple of spots of ich. I bumped the heater back to 78F and he was fine the next day. No matter how healthy they look at any given time, I'm keeping their tank items and them on permanent quarantine.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 22 Jun 2007, 09:08

Cause and effect.....
You are both reaching for the medicine bottles so frequently to treat fish which keep getting sick - ask yourselves why. All the fish you keep are hardy and not problematic. The key to preventing all your disease and water problems is correct water/ tank management. If your filter is not mature and/ or your tank too small and/ or your gravel is the wrong type - then your set-up is not stable (the cause), resulting in stress and disease (the effect).
Save as much water as you can from your current set-up. Clean your filter media in tank water and remove the carbon- replace with ceramic media/ sponge. Remove your gravel and replace with fine gravel or sand - washed clean. re-set up the tank and monitor the water. Frequent water changes will help stabilise the system until it matures.
Get that right and you will no longer have to spend a small fortune on remedies.[/b]

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 22 Jun 2007, 13:48

wrasse wrote:Cause and effect.....
You are both reaching for the medicine bottles so frequently to treat fish which keep getting sick - ask yourselves why. All the fish you keep are hardy and not problematic. The key to preventing all your disease and water problems is correct water/ tank management. If your filter is not mature and/ or your tank too small and/ or your gravel is the wrong type - then your set-up is not stable (the cause), resulting in stress and disease (the effect).
Save as much water as you can from your current set-up. Clean your filter media in tank water and remove the carbon- replace with ceramic media/ sponge. Remove your gravel and replace with fine gravel or sand - washed clean. re-set up the tank and monitor the water. Frequent water changes will help stabilise the system until it matures.
Get that right and you will no longer have to spend a small fortune on remedies.[/b]

Just one question...where do I put the fish when I am doing all of this?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 22 Jun 2007, 13:54

I wrote a rather lengthy description of "how to replace your substrate" a while back.

But here's a short summary:
1. Get a tub (or a number of tubs) to keep the water from the tank.
2. Drain about half or two thirds of the water.
3. Catch fish and put in one of the tubs. If filter is removable, put it in the tub with the fish.
4. Drain rest of the water. (If it's really murky, discard it, if it's nice and clean, save it in a tub).
5. Remove existing substrate.
6. Add new substrate.
7. Replace the saved water.
8. Top up (if necessary) with fresh water from the tap (make sure it's same temperature as the existing water).
9. Replace fish (and filter).

--
Mats

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 22 Jun 2007, 14:22

Sounds pretty straight forward.

I don't have several tubs but I do have something to scoop water with and another ten gallon tank. So I could fill that with the tank water and put them in there.

This gravel has given me trouble right from the start. When I initially set up the tank some wispy bacteria began to grow on it.

I'll head up to Petsmart in a little bit and buy some some sand. I already saw some stuff up there that is made for freshwater aquariums.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 22 Jun 2007, 17:14

DONE!
Went pretty much straight forward. I bought sand, but that started to clog my filter. So then I brought it back and got some finer gravel. The particles are much smaller than the gravel I had in there. I've used this small gravel in my gold fish tank and my dad uses it in his angel fish tank and we have yet to have any problems with it.
Hopefully the new gravel and the 2/3 water change I just did will help all of the issues.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 23 Jun 2007, 00:35

My tropical residents haven't been sick in a long time. Their tank is stable. My issues with them were when I first got some of them and yes, when my tank was new and I was trying to get by on a HOB filter too small for the tank and poor choice of debris-trapping substrate (same issues KSUpilot is currently dealing with). Any references I make to medication pertaining to my tropicals is from past experience that I used to get me through that unstable "newbie" time.

My more recent experience with medication is on two bettas and the goldfish. The first betta that died had anchor worm and oodinium and dropsy--I thought it was ill but it was my husband and daughter's pick, not mine. The second betta, yes, you are correct--it was housed in inadequate conditions which I have remedied. I bought the goldfish already ill. Their tankmates in the Petco and the other LFS were dying, these guys were still very perky and friendly but clearly carriers. And yes, their quarantine tank was not adequate to their needs. They are now in a 50 gallon tank and recovered for the most part. The tank is fully cycled and stable. However these guys have survived a lot.

I totally agree reliance on medication is not the answer and that environment must be made optimal. But while a person is trying to establish those proper parameters, it helps to know which meds can nurse the fish through the rough times. And that's why I was discussing meds.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 23 Jun 2007, 02:12

I too am not using medication as the first defense. I try to avoid having to medicate. That is why I changed the gravel.
It is tough setting up your first catfish tank, as things that would go perfectly fine for other fish (ie size of the gravel) might be very bad for a catfish.
I learn something new everyday. And hopefully this will keep me from losing anymore fish.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 23 Jun 2007, 09:57

Yes, you will definitely get there. If I can have a happy stable tank, anyone can!

I had my share of losses, too, (well documented on this forum) while I was setting up and learning. Each kind of fish you get into will put you up against a new learning curve. Bettas, for example--thought they would be a no-brainer. Most people keep them in little bowls, so you'd think a 2.5 gallon filtered tank would be a big step up. And maybe 90% of the time, it is. But in my case, nope. Needed 5 gallons, an Aquaclear 20 and a good air stone. Little dude is thriving now after a hellacious case of finrot from being kept in what I thought, and had read, were "fine" conditions for a betta.

Goldfish are really new to me. I'm getting loads of help from an old friend who used to breed them, as well as goldfish centered forums. I did research BEFORE I bought some, but for me there's always been a temporary disconnect between processing the information I read and implementing it successfully. And as with anything, there is so much conflicting information and advice out there. Some of the information had me almost terrified to feed them, with all the dire warnings about anything other than live plants and jello type food.

At any rate, when I first started back up on fishkeeping, I was so hesitant to use medication on my clearly ailing fish that I lost loads of them. Now that I have more experience in selecting and administering medication, I realize I probably could have saved most of the fish I lost. I know now that they came to me with disease already in their systems. I don't know what it's like in other locations, but where I live and given what my local sources are, truly healthy fish are very hard to come by. I now medicate ALL incoming fish with the Jungle Buddies broad spectrum anti-parasite and anti-fungal/anti bacteria meds. The only ones I would not have to do that with, would be any fish from CorysRUs.

I haven't had any losses of existing residents or new additions since putting them through medication in quarantine.

Fortunately, knock wood, I'm finished with acclimating new fish. I have some of each type of big-personality fish that I admire: cichlid, corydoras, betta, goldfish. Now I'm just busy researching and purchasing all the equipment I need to optimize their setups, not just for ordinary conditions but for power outages and vacation automated care. Power outages used to be fun--kind of like camping--with candles or flashlights and spooky stories. Now a power failure means putting my filter contents into buckets & swishing them into the air and back into the water several times an hour to keep them from going stagnant. I'll be glad to get a backup power system in place.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 25 Jun 2007, 14:27

Everything is still looking good. It is strange, the Cory has a bunch of that white junk on him in the morning, but then later in the day it goes away.
I can't really tell if it is growing on him or just rubbing off from the plants.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 27 Jun 2007, 10:01

Wow, that is WEIRD, all right. If you ever find out what that white stuff is, or even if you don't, please keep me posted on your cory. A few months ago I had an outbreak of some weird webby white stuff in my tank after I introduced some new plants. I had bought the snail-free packaged plants from PetCo, so suffering an attack of the lazies, I just rinsed them prior to putting them into the tank. Normally I dip even these supposedly pristine plants in Jungle Buddies anti-fungal and anti-parasite treatment just to be on the safe side. But this time, I did not.

Next thing I new, I had white webby growth on the glass, and it quickly threatened to engulf the tank. I didn't see any get on the fish. I had noticed it first one morning when I turned on the light. When I came back home later in the day, it was mostly gone. I had thought that my Elegans cory had eaten it. She was definitely nibbling, but it turned out she had not eaten it all.

It recurred the next day. I tried anti fungal treatment on it and that did not work and all it did was disrupt my biological filter. Then I manually scraped it off all surfaces and siphoned off some of the afflicted gravel. Still, it came back. The only thing that got rid of it was turning up the heater to about 78F-80F. When I tried to return the water to the normal 74-75F range my cories are more comfortable with, the creeping white horror returned. I bumped the heater back up to 78F and kept it there, only bumping it back down just last night as a matter of fact.

I have recently siphoned out ALL of my gravel and installed Eco Complete substrate which I then topped off with a layer of Estee fine colored gravel. I was open to just having the EcoComplete, which the cories seem to enjoy and it's really cool looking to have a "dirt" bottom tank, but EcoComplete is really light and fluffy so I needed the gravel to weight down the plants, because I didn't really want to use marbles and rocks again, since they just retain mess. When the plants get established in the EcoComplete I may siphon out some of the colored gravel. I did keep some bare spots where there's just EcoComplete. I wish I could know in advance what I will end up liking best and what will work out for me best, but I don't. So unfortunately my fish have to endure just a bit more trial and error on my part.

It remains to be seen if the creeping white fuzz returns now that I've put the temperature back down. I do also have driftwood now, and my water is a lot more acidic now than it used to be back in the days when all I had were silk plants and resin ornaments. So that is yet another variable I must note.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 27 Jun 2007, 15:51

I'm thinking it might have to do with the humidity outside. I noticed some small fuzz in my goldfish tank now and that has been stable for over a year.
I also noticed something similar on my car windows last night.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 29 Jun 2007, 09:43

Do you by any chance have any significant batches of mushrooms growing on or near your property outdoors? We have one cluster of them that pops up every time we get a good few days of rain this time of year and it's my understanding the spores will look fuzzy webby white if they get growing on indoor surfaces. Could be a connection.

KSUpilot · Post by **KSUpilot** » 05 Sep 2007, 01:53

Out at college now. My parents are taking care of the fish while I'm away.

Thanks for everyone's help this summer. Everything stabilized in early August. I lost the Pictus right before that, but after that, everything stabilized.

Living happily together are 3 White Clouds, 1 Cory, 1 Otto, and 1 Syno-Hybrid.

I wish I could have Catfish out at school...but it would be tough to set-up a good sized tank in a small dorm room. I have a 1 gallon tank with a Betta in it though, and he is doing great!