votroi cory ?

[kewskills]

hello, i have 6 new corys the shop said they are called votroi however i can not find any info on them, any ideas please. Thanks

[Marc van Arc]

There used to be a Corydoras wotroi, which is now regarded as a synonym of

Corydoras melanistius

Thanks for your question; I've apparently forgot to add this one to the synonyms list (done by now)

[corysrus]

There used to be a Corydoras wotroi, which is now regarded as a synonym of

Corydoras melanistius

Thanks for your question; I've apparently forgot to add this one to the synonyms list (done by now)

Actually, C. wotroi is a synonym for C. brevirostris. C. brevirostris was formerly known as a subspecies of C. melanistius but elevated to species level in 2001.

[Marc van Arc]

Actually, C. wotroi is a synonym for C. brevirostris. C. brevirostris was formerly known as a subspecies of C. melanistius but elevated to species level in 2001.

Sorry, but I have to contradict you here. The second part of your statement is certainly true (although I believe it was elevated to species level in 1980 by Nijssen & Isbrücker), but neither FishBase nor CoF list C. wotroi as a synonym for C. brevirostris.

[corysrus]

Actually, C. wotroi is a synonym for C. brevirostris. C. brevirostris was formerly known as a subspecies of C. melanistius but elevated to species level in 2001.

Sorry, but I have to contradict you here. The second part of your statement is certainly true (although I believe it was elevated to species level in 1980 by Nijssen & Isbrücker), but neither FishBase nor CoF list C. wotroi as a synonym for C. brevirostris.

Not a problem ! Contradict as you may but if you take a gander at page 89 of Identifying Corydoradinae Catfish (Fuller & Evers) which is Corydoras brevirostris you may want to rethink your contradiction on both points !

In fact I'll do all the legwork for you:

Remarks:
Formerly known as a subspecies of Corydoras melanistius, but elevated to species level by Isbrucker (in Fuller, 2001). Corydoras wotroi (Nijssen,1970) is a junior synonym.

[Jools]

On the first point, I think you're at cross purposes. I seem to recall C. wotroi was made a junior synonymy in 1980 and that the two sub species were elevated to full species status around 2001 (although it may have been a bit earlier) - certainly the Fuller & Evers book was out in 2001.

The point remains that I (we) don't know is whether the synonymy of C. wotroi was with C. melanistius melanistius or C. melanistius brevirostris.

I'd be interested why anyone thinks once source is more reliable than the other and neither can be taken as gospel until there's some homework done.

Anyone got the paper where it was synonymized?

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

Jools, Corysrus,
This is no matter of being right or wrong. In my case it's first a matter of helping someone (Kewskills) out and secondly linking the synonym C. wotroi to the correct species. To do so I usually use FB and CoF as my references.
I do not own Ian's book (2005 imo), so I'm quite happy with Corysrus' opinion and legwork. The worst thing for me when he is right is that I have to change 2 data sheets; in other words: no problem at all.
Perhaps Ian could shine his light upon this subject?

[Jools]

Perhaps Ian could shine his light upon this subject?

Agreed all round. I'd be more inclined to follow CoF, but there's probably some detail here we're missing.

Jools

[Coryman]

Corydoras wotroi Nijssen & Isbrücker, 1967 and was later placed as a synonym of C. melanisteus brevirostris Fraser-Brunner, 1947, in Nijssen & Isbrücker, 1970 40-43 they cast some doubt as to where C. wotroi fits in with C. melanisteus however, In 2001 Isbrücker in Fuller, 2001 raised it along with C. melanisteus to full species level.

What put doubt into the equasion in the first place, was the fact that C. m. brevirostris was described from aquarium specimens and there exact origin was not known.

I am not exactly certain when Nijssen & Isbrücker published that [C. wotroi[/i] was in fact a junior synonym of C. brevirostris I will have to do a little more research to find that out.

Ian

[Jools]

I guess I should also ask if it is correctly spelt C. melanisteus or C. melanistius!

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

Both data sheets have been changed; C. wotroi now sitting under

Corydoras brevirostris

;

Corydoras melanistius

having no synonym anymore.

Jools: I can't remove the entry in Original - Not original genus. Could you do that in C. melanistius
?

[Coryman]

C. melanistius is right, just back from a 7 hour flight so I will blame jet lag.

Ian

[Jools]

Jools: I can't remove the entry in Original - Not original genus. Could you do that in C. melanistius
?

Done, actually I changed the synonym on

Corydoras melanistius

to C. melanistius melanistius. Please let me know if I've got it all right as this was a bit of a tricky one!

Jools

[Jools]

C. melanistius is right, just back from a 7 hour flight so I will blame jet lag.

No worries, glad to have you back on the island. I just wanted to check that some new information on spelling hadn't come to light...

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

Done, actually I changed the synonym on

Corydoras melanistius

to C. melanistius melanistius. Please let me know if I've got it all right as this was a bit of a tricky one!

I didn't do so on purpose because both FB and CoF do not list C. melanistius melanistius, despite the fact you would expect it because of the (other) subspecies C. melanistius brevirostris.

So I daren't say whether you are right or wrong. It's a fair assumption imo, however not backed up by FB and Cof.
But then, don't forget they both still have C. wotroi under C. melanstius. Perhaps they're somewhat behind with their information on this matter?

[Jools]

I think it's safe to add it in but I do understand your hesitation to do so.

Jools

[Coryman]

In actual fact C. melanistius melanistius is not a synonym and by the same token neither is C. melanistius brevirostris, both were sub species that are not longer valid. The name C. melanistius longirostris is a synonym of C. melanistius as is C. wotroi a synonym of C. brevirostris.

Ian

[Marc van Arc]

In actual fact C. melanistius melanistius is not a synonym and by the same token neither is C. melanistius brevirostris

So what you suggest is that both have to be withdrawn from the list, despite the fact That FB and CoF list the latter as "valid"?

The name C. melanistius longirostris is a synonym of C. melanistius

I've listed C.m.longirostris as a synonym of

Corydoras ambiacus

. So that should be replaced as well?

[Jools]

In actual fact C. melanistius melanistius is not a synonym and by the same token neither is C. melanistius brevirostris, both were sub species that are not longer valid.

I didn't think names can just be "disappeared" like that however I am not sure of the procedure for moving fish out of sub species.

Maybe HH or someone can advise on the code?


Jools

[Coryman]

Isaac Isbruecker in 2001, raised all four Corydoras sub-species to full species level.

The names have not actually disappeared it has just been fully ratified.

These were: -
C. pastazensis pastazensis to C. pastazensis
C. pastazensis orcesi to C. orcesi
C. melanistius melanistius to C. melanistius
C. melanistius brevirostris to C. brevirostris

Personally I cannot see how the sub-species name can be a synonym because the description is still the same, unlike Hoedeman's description of C. melanistius longirostris, which was proven to be a synonym of C. melanistius melanistius.

The data in FB and CoF, has the same problems as some scientific works, where you have lumpers and splitters producing contradicting works. Who do you follow? As far as I and the majority of Cory people are concerned there are no longer any Corydoradinae sub-species and therefore there is no need for their listing. We are now getting made up sub-species being offered by exporters with names like; C. blochi julii; C. blochi sodalis[/i] and other weird mixes.

Ian

[Jools]

Personally I cannot see how the sub-species name can be a synonym because the description is still the same

Well, what about misspellings? They can generate synonyms in the same way but are from a description that is "still the same" - only the name has changed.

Anyway, that's sort of off the point, I don't see how a name that has been used in formal scientific papers etc can simply be "disappeared" without leaving a trace as a synonym. Why should trinomens be treated differently from binomens? I don't _think_ they are? I'd like someone who's trained in the stuff however to give us a steer.

We are now getting made up sub-species being offered by exporters with names like; C. blochi julii; C. blochi sodalis[/i] and other weird mixes.

These have not appeared in scientific papers and so are at the same level as "Corydoras san juan" or whatever. They're nothing to do with formal descriptions.

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

The name C. melanistius longirostris is a synonym of C. melanistius

I've listed C.m.longirostris as a synonym of

Corydoras ambiacus

. So that should be replaced as well?

Leaving the Corydoras melanistius melanistius and C. melanistius brevirostris synonyms alone for a while until things are clearer, what we could do is replace the synonym Corydoras melanistius longirostris form Corydoras ambiacus to Corydoras melanistius.

I will do the replacement; Jools, could you delete the leftovers of that synonym from the

Corydoras ambiacus

data sheet?

[Marc van Arc]

I will do the replacement; Jools, could you delete the leftovers of that synonym from the

Corydoras ambiacus

data sheet?

The editing has been done.

[Jools]

I've asked Silurus for a steer on this.

Jools

[Jools]

I will do the replacement; Jools, could you delete the leftovers of that synonym from the

Corydoras ambiacus

data sheet?

Marc,

Sorry but I'm not following you. I've actioned the data submission which has added a new synonym. However, doesn't the issue of whether "trinomens being changed changed to binomens creating synonyms or not" need resolved first?

Quite happy to be wrong here, just don't quite understand.

Jools

[Jools]

I've asked Silurus for a steer on this.

OK, with the advice from above, I now understand the "law" which, in simple terms, means I'm entirely wrong - the trinomen DOES just disappear without any trace. The logic (which was what Ian was alluding to when he talked about the "same species" if I understood correctly) was that they share the same holotype.

Sorry for the bandwidth, but I'm one of those annoying types that has to understand why something is rather than just accept it.

I guess I was coming from the fact that if I did a search on, say, Corydoras melanistius melanistius, I'd expect to find C. melanistius clearly this now won't happen. I will however edit the pages to mention the trinomens and that will help at least with fuzzy searches.

Jools

[Jools]

Jools, could you delete the leftovers of that synonym from the

Corydoras ambiacus

data sheet?

Done. However, does that mean that C. longirostris is the synonym of C. melanistius and C. m. longirostris should actually be deleted???

Jools

[Marc van Arc]

However, does that mean that C. longirostris is the synonym of C. melanistius and C. m. longirostris should actually be deleted???

That's a fair question. There is no valid species named Corydoras longirostris, so I see little harm.
But I'm no scientist and it's not backed up by CoF nor FB.

If you decide to do so, don't forget to delete the (same) synonym from the

Corydoras ambiacus

data sheet!