Sturisoma ID please

bnalbino · Post by **bnalbino** » 08 May 2007, 05:25

can u please tell me if I do indeed have Sturisoma Panamense????

Post by **Janne** » 08 May 2007, 08:21

No, it's not S. panamense, I would say these are very young .

Janne

bnalbino · Post by **bnalbino** » 08 May 2007, 22:03

these fish are <11cm to the fork of tail so not very young

Post by **Janne** » 09 May 2007, 09:27

Yes they are, if the body lenght is 11 cm they should not be older then around 6-8 months...at least younger then 1 year if they are tank breed depending how good care the owner gave them.

Janne

bnalbino · Post by **bnalbino** » 10 May 2007, 10:01

Janne wrote:Yes they are, if the body lenght is 11 cm they should not be older then around 6-8 months...at least younger then 1 year if they are tank breed depending how good care the owner gave them.

Janne

well in that regard then yes they are young but I thought u were meaning they were fry, my mistake.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 May 2007, 13:31

Adult males can get pretty long and this fish as large as it is is not sexable yet.

Regardless of it's size it makes no difference as far as being one of the coolest of the Loricariadae.

I have a couple pair of what I believe are Sturisoma aureum and they are a center piece fish in their tank. They rarely hide unlike so many of the Hypancistrus and Peckoltia species that fetch the high prices..

Post by **Janne** » 10 May 2007, 16:22

Larry wrote:I have a couple pair of what I believe are Sturisoma aureum and they are a center piece fish in their tank.

I cant agree more, Sturisoma species have everything we want from a loricariid; they never hide, they have an interesting behaviour, they are easy to breed and on top of everything...they eat alga

Janne

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 May 2007, 17:03

There is a darkside to keeping Sturisoma with Discus.
The Surisoma were fine with these Heckels when then discus were small but once they got some size to them the Sturisoma nearly skinned them alive.
The were the best algae eaters I have ever had and I only had to clean the glass once a month.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 May 2007, 17:19

What is your opion of the identification of this Sturisoma?
I'm thinking Sturisoma aureum but they often resemble each other so I'm never sure. These are presently in spawning condition. Not shown in this photo.

Then again they have black rostrums.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 May 2007, 17:34

Here is an overview of these Sturisoma for ID purposes.

Post by **Janne** » 10 May 2007, 22:13

Larry,

For me your species is but even if their rostrum is black at the end...it's not as black on the underside like it is on .
Have a look on , all pictures except one is wrong...the pic from Below water showing a species in wild in Panama is correct, in my view is all the other S. aureum. But there are a revision going on at this family and hopefully we will have a more clear view in the end of this year what is what.

Janne

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 10 May 2007, 22:51

Janne,
Thank you for your views. I had been leaning toward the S. aureum as being the most correct answer for awhile.
I went through periods where I thought they were everyone of them except S. panamense based on various postings and cat-e-log comparisons. Also from the areas the supplier imports most of his fish from.

I hope they spawn. The males have very lush growths of the bristles which just have grown within the past four weeks.

Post by **Janne** » 11 May 2007, 08:10

Some small tips to spawn Sturisoma species, feed them for some weeks with frozen Cyclops or Daphnia, change water frequently and put a powerhead in the tank, where the current hit the glass...there they will spawn.

Janne

flash · Post by **flash** » 11 May 2007, 09:23

Hi all
more tips on spawning
1/ increase filtration .i use 2 130 gal per hour ehime and a large internal fillter on a 100 gal tank
2/ feed catfish pellets and frozen livefood
3/ turn up the heat .i keep mine in a tank at 80 in the summer where they spawn on an internal filter . but in the winter when the temp drops a couple of degrees they spawn on the glass near the heater.
this works on my feasivums,aureums and leightoni
hope this helps
cheers flash

Norman · Post by **Norman** » 11 May 2007, 10:50

Hi Larry,

I would agree with Janne and say that your Sturisoma are S.aureum.
Next to the small fins you can have a look at the coloration of the headsides. Here you can see a golden backround what is conforming with the Etymology of the name S.aureum.

best regards
Norman

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 May 2007, 14:47

Thanks for the advice. I seem to have the bases covered.
It's up to one of the two pairs to do the deed.

They have a 36X12X18 in 35 gallon tank equipped with an Eheim Classic 2215, 160gph powerhead attached to a large sponge filter. Air is pumped into the Venturi inlet of the powerhead.

They eat all the earthworm sticks, frozen bloodworms and live blackworms they care to eat.
They spend mosst of their non-feeding times on a smooth pieece of driftwood near the outlet of the powerhead.
Four bamboo shrimp also prefer this area but they ignore each other.

The males just sprouted the beard-like fuzz on thepectorals and "face" this past four weeks.

I change about 70% of the water 3 X week. One thing I have not yet tried but plan is to make one of the next water changes used aged peat filtered RO water.

The normal water conditions are :
pH 7.2
Conductivity 300 umhos/cm
Hardness CaCO3 75 ppm
Alkalinity as CaCO3 125ppm
TDS 250 ppm
Temp: 26C to 28C
A 70% RO replacement water change should put them close to a good comfort zone conducive for spawning.
At least that is about all the more tricks I have up my sleeve. I have had them one year as of this May.

Post by **Janne** » 11 May 2007, 16:59

Your water parameters seams ok, maybe a little to hard water. Dont let the temp drop and try to keep it stable around 28 C, they will soon start to spawn and when they do...you cant stop them

Janne

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 11 May 2007, 18:33

Janne,
I agree. It might be possible to spawn them in the tapwater. I drained about 60% right after posting the technical water conditions and I am slowly refilling the Sturisoma tank directly from the RO machine thanks to a 25 ft extension tubing. The rate is so slow that the heater is not letting it drop below 26C, if that.

They seem so close to readiness that perhaps this simulated freshet will be just the last piece of the puzzle. I should know soon enough. One more change like this will really bring me down in "the zone."
Just better to be prudent about making the changes not too abrupt.
I just received the RO garden hose adapter in the middle of my project. This will allow me to run the incoming source water at a much higher psi and now that it has begun to warm up and as it gets warmer, I should get greater production efficiencies.

Now I just have to buy more tubing to direct the "waste water" to the outer perimeter of the front lawn beyond the lush green where my routine water change water is siphoned out the door. It is nice to reuse the water since I'm charged by the unit.

Since refitting all my tanks with T-5 NO lighting fixtures, compact fluorescents replaced all room incandescents and heating my tanks is also helping to heat the house, I am saving close to 15% on my power bill ove the same period a year ago at exactly the same average winter temps. The system has already come close to or already has paid for itself.

I'm surprised I didn't get any comments back on the photo showing a Sturisoma attacking the Heckel Discus. The Discus would have died if I hadn't removed the Sturisoma. I was in denial at first but after awhile the attacks were incessant and I had a one to one ratio of Heckel to Sturisoma(ten each) at that time. Simultaneous attacks became continous.
It was a shame because they made such a nice combo.

Now I have a large male Ancistrus sp #3, 4 species of ~six each Peckoltia and Hypancistrus and six Crenicicla regani living with the Heckels. Life is good in the Discus tank again. About one more year and the Heckels should be mature and spawnable if
I am fortunate. It has been a goal of mine to have a successful captive breeding of wild caught Heckels.

Post by **Janne** » 11 May 2007, 21:46

Larry wrote:I'm surprised I didn't get any comments back on the photo showing a Sturisoma attacking the Heckel Discus.

This is a very rare behaviour and not many people have seen it, some people claim that Otocinclus species act similar too, eating of the slimecoat on Discus. I think they act like this when they lack something from their food (or lack food) and Discus is easy victims, I have never seen this behaviour by my self even that I have been keeping fishes for at least 30 years.

Larry wrote: It has been a goal of mine to have a successful captive breeding of wild caught Heckels.

Now you need your RO unit

Janne

bnalbino · Post by **bnalbino** » 12 May 2007, 04:03

thanks for all the posts and interesting facts about them.
Do the males always have the bristles or do they only have them when in breeding mode???

What is RO water???

is 25-30 a fair range or do they require a more specific temp???

Today I picked up a proven breeding pair, this pair have been breeding EVERY three weeks reliably for a mate and I have replicated his tank and conditions almost exactly apart from water chemistry.

another friend (the breeder of the pair i got has commented before on them attacking discus and angels too

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 12 May 2007, 04:48

When the Sturisoma were with the heckels they were doing fine at ~30C+. They seem to be able tolerate a fairly wide range of warmer temperature as long as the DO is close to saturation.

I think 10 Sturis attacking 10 Discus is pretty good evidence. I have photos showing more of the Sturisoma's attacking as a group that I did not show.

I suspect that there aren't too many aquarists who have tried keeping 10/10 Discus/Sturisoma in the same tank for 8 months.

Maybe a pair or single individual would not feel emboldened enough to take on a group of 10 wild Discus?

Maybe they would spawn in my tapwater but I always try to match the natural water chemistry whenever I am trying to breed softwater fishes which pretty much is all I keep.

Day to day maintenance I am more lax about it since my water could be much worse.
I have bred wild blue, brown and Green discus sucessfully in it as is. Wouldn't dream of trying to breed Heckels in it.

Post by **Janne** » 12 May 2007, 11:23

bnalbino wrote:Do the males always have the bristles or do they only have them when in breeding mode???

When a male have become mature it will always have these bristles more or less, but can lose them completely if the water parameters get bad...in an Aquarium environment. Old females can also grow bristles on their cheeks but normaly not so much or long compared with the males.

Larry wrote:I think 10 Sturis attacking 10 Discus is pretty good evidence. I have photos showing more of the Sturisoma's attacking as a group that I did not show. I suspect that there aren't too many aquarists who have tried keeping 10/10 Discus/Sturisoma in the same tank for 8 months.
Maybe a pair or single individual would not feel emboldened enough to take on a group of 10 wild Discus?

I have no doubts what you say is true, there have been several reports about this kind of behaviour from loricariids but I really dont think this is their natural behaviour.

Janne

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 12 May 2007, 16:07

I doubt this behavior ever occurs in nature.
I think is is only something that could happen in aquarium where both Sturisoma and Discus exploit all levels of the water column and the Surisoma are in too close contact with pancaked shaped fish that intrude into what they considered their territories.

flash · Post by **flash** » 12 May 2007, 19:24

Hi bnalbino
i have a trio in a 100 gal community tank 2 males and 1 female .they spawn every 10 days or so and have been doing for over 18 months now .the males both have a very lush "beard".the only difference is the one that she spawns with (they seem to take turns)tends to get a little pink around the gills
cheers flash

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 12 May 2007, 19:47

bnalbino wrote:thanks for all the posts and interesting facts about them.
Do the males always have the bristles or do they only have them when in breeding mode???

What is RO water???

is 25-30 a fair range or do they require a more specific temp???

Today I picked up a proven breeding pair, this pair have been breeding EVERY three weeks reliably for a mate and I have replicated his tank and conditions almost exactly apart from water chemistry.

another friend (the breeder of the pair i got has commented before on them attacking discus and angels too

bnalbino,
RO water is just an abbeviation for water that has been passed through a Reverse Osmosis Filter. The product water is usually 90 to 95 % pure water. If run through a mixed cation and anion exchange resin chamber the water becomes 99% pure or better.
It is the most convenient way to produce pure water that can be further modified to a specific degree. Usually in an effort to reproduce the natural water conditions in which a fish normally breeds.

bnalbino · Post by **bnalbino** » 12 May 2007, 22:50

apisto and flash thanks heaps for ur comments it helps a lot.

as yet I only have a pair but they have been spawning 3weekly (I wander would that change if I was to add another male???)[has anyone done this and noted a change???]

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 13 May 2007, 00:00

I am wondering what are becoming of all these eggs?
Are you trying to hatch them artificially? Males normally guard their eggs for a long time unless something happens to them.

I don't mean to be presumptive but why would another male help? I think along the lines of lost $$$ signs as a fish breeder. Sturisoma juveniles would be an easy sell for me so I would be figuring out the hatching and raising of eggs in hand rather than those in the proverbial bush.

That is what I am trying to do with mine. I'd be glad to have the spawning to begin. Once it does there is no way I am going to give up on clutches of eggs without a fight.

bnalbino · Post by **bnalbino** » 13 May 2007, 00:43

apistomaster wrote:I am wondering what are becoming of all these eggs?
Are you trying to hatch them artificially? Males normally guard their eggs for a long time unless something happens to them.

I don't mean to be presumptive but why would another male help? I think along the lines of lost $$$ signs as a fish breeder. Sturisoma juveniles would be an easy sell for me so I would be figuring out the hatching and raising of eggs in hand rather than those in the proverbial bush.
That is what I am trying to do with mine. I'd be glad to have the spawning to begin. Once it does there is no way I am going to give up on clutches of eggs without a fight.

if ur asking me where all these eggs are going? I have only had the pair for one day. the guy I got them off was leaving them with the father and selling them regularly.

yes I agree in Australia the royal whips are not a cheap nor commonly available fish, LFS price them too high for the average mum and dad to consider buying.

flash · Post by **flash** » 13 May 2007, 15:33

Hi all
when i got my first pair of adults they were fully grown and didnt take much notice of each other.a few months later i found another adult male .only a couple of weeks later the female became very fat with eggs .maybe it was watching the males fight (as they tend to do a lot)or maybe she just matured .i dont realy know but it seemed to do the trick.she tends to initiate the spawning by starting to clean the spot where she will lay eggs .then the male joins in and by the next morning they have eggs .(they spawned last night)
as for the fry they are very hard to rear. i sell them at around 3 to 4 inches and that takes about 4 months .i sell them for 2 pounds each and the guy i sell them to gets 8 pounds each so hes the one making money .i manage to sell around 100+ per month so the mortality is quite high id say over 50%
hope this helps
cheers flash

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 May 2007, 11:27

apistomaster wrote:bnalbino,
RO water is just an abbeviation for water that has been passed through a Reverse Osmosis Filter. The product water is usually 90 to 95 % pure water. If run through a mixed cation and anion exchange resin chamber the water becomes 99% pure or better.
It is the most convenient way to produce pure water that can be further modified to a specific degree. Usually in an effort to reproduce the natural water conditions in which a fish normally breeds.

Just picking nit, really [it's what I do best anyways

]:

The water coming out of your tap is probably MUCH purer than 95% already. What the Reverse Osmosis unit does is remove something like 95% of the "impurities" in the water. In my rather hard water, the impurities amounts to about 300 ppm (parts per million), so if you remove 95% of that, you get left with pretty pure water (5% of 300 ppm = 15 ppm). Yes, it will be further purified if you run it through another filter, but that's really only necessary if you either have some really nasty stuff in the water, or you're using it in a silicon chip manufacturing plant (where even one part per million "dirt" could ruin your production yield).

--
Mats