My Poor Little Blue

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 18 Apr 2007, 14:22

I got 7 panda corys on 02/03/07. They had bad fungus issues so I treated them with 1/4 the dose of Mythelen Blue as directed by my local fish shop. I had 4 fish die: 1 on 02.03.07, 2 on 06.03.07, and 1 on 09.03.07. The remaining 3 healed wonderfully, though they were stained blue and lump free:

http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/BluePan ... index.html

as you can see in the above pic, all fish are fine and healthy looking except the panda corys are blue where the albino bronze corys are not. I got them together, quarinteined them together, and so on, but they're fine and all lived. Go figure.

Anyway, on 15.03.07 we moved them in with the other panda corys in our downstairs tank. On 19.03.07 he started tilting to one side and having swimming issues, so we treated the tank with half a dose of the swimbladder stuff, did a full corse and he was fine.

On 29.03.07 he started having swimming issues again, basically:

* Fish's back end started floating, had what looked like white spot
* removed and treated for white spot
* noticed white spot vanished, was sand, he went belly up
* started draining tank, and swished him gently in water without touching him as I noticed a large lump at the base of his tail
* went normal
* went belly up again
* put new water with swimbladder treatment in, started swishing again
* after a few mins he zipped off then settled down

So we chose to remove him and save treating the whole tank as everyone else seemed fine. When we got him into the hospital tank we noticed a large lump on the back of his fin. We have been treating him non stop with swimbladder medication and on 03.04.07 (I think, very early april either way) I started to treat him with Flubenol-15 as well as recomended by Ian (http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showuser=24242) in this post (http://www.fishforums.net/Panda-Cory-Em ... 87838.html). We've been treating him non stop, he seems to get better, then have swim problems, then get better back and forth. the lump hasn't changed in size, he is still blue and still swimming weird and tilting to the side or having his tail end drift up on him.

Pics from 29.03.07
http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/lb1.jpg
Red Arrow points to bulge
http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/lb2.jpg
Red arrow points to widest part of bulge, blue arrow points to base of tail, it sticks out way far...
http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/lb3.jpg
http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/lb4.jpg
Quite a dark one but shows where the tail starts and how far the bulge sticks out the best of all the photos.

Here are pics of him and his lump that I took earlier this month:

http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/fishief ... eBlue1.jpg
http://www.spodbox.org/~saphphx/fishief ... eBlue2.jpg

What should I do with him? Keep him on his own and keep up with the constant treatment? Put him back with his panda friends (who are all still normal and lump free, also less blue then he is)? or should I be thinking about putting him to sleep? I would guess as there has been no change that it is some sort of tumor and the tumor itself is causing the swimming issues.

Tanks he has lived in:

Tank 1 - Hospital/QT - 02.03.07 to 15.03.07
--Species: 7 Corydoras panda, 5 corydoras aeneus (albino_
--Size: a bit less then 1/2 inch each
--Food: Live blood worm, frozen blood worm, live brine shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, sinking pellets, microworms
--Feeding times: frozen or live food in the morning, pellets or frozen food in afternoon, pellets in the evening
--Temerature range: 24C to 25C/75F to 77F
--pH: 7.2
--GH: no test kit for this test
--KH: no test kit for this test
--Ammonia: 0ppm
--Nitrate: 0.2ppm
--Nitrite: 0ppm
--Water change frequency: 25%-30% weekly
Tank set up
--Size: 27ltr
--Substrate: sand
--Filtration: built in
--Furnishings: small pots to hide in
--How long has it been set-up? used established water and filter from a 6 month old tank
--When was the last new fish added? he was the last fish added late feb to early march
--Is there a heater in the tank? no, the room is heated
Tank 2 - Panda Town II - 15.03.07 - 29.03.07
--Species: 8 Corydoras panda, 6 clown loach
--Size: a bit less then 2/3 inch each
--Food: Live blood worm, frozen blood worm, live brine shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, sinking pellets, microworms
--Feeding times: frozen or live food in the morning, pellets or frozen food in afternoon, pellets in the evening
--Temerature range: 77F to 80F
--pH: 7.4
--GH: no test kit for this test
--KH: no test kit for this test
--Ammonia: 0ppm
--Nitrate: 0.4ppm
--Nitrite: 0ppm
--Water change frequency: 25%-30% weekly
Tank set up
--Size: 40ltr
--Substrate: sand
--Filtration: Fluval 2
--Furnishings: small pots to hide in, plants
--How long has it been set-up? over a year
--When was the last new fish added? 15.03.07 - panda corys
--Is there a heater in the tank? yes
--Symptoms / Problem description: lump on tail base, whole body tilting to one side
--Action taken (if any): placed him in a breeding trap in tank 3, put small pot and sand in breeding trap, and an air stone right in the trap, with a second airstone powering the sponge filter.
--Medications used (if any): Treating with swimbladder treatment from 29.03.07 and added Flubenol-15 to the treatment list on 04.04.07 (give or take a day or two, can't find my sick fish record book)
Tank 3 - QT - 29.03.07 to present
--Species: 1 Corydoras panda
--Size: a bit less then 2/3 inch
--Food: Live blood worm, frozen blood worm, live brine shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, sinking pellets, microworms
--Feeding times: frozen or live food in the morning, pellets or frozen food in afternoon, pellets in the evening
--Temerature range: 77F to 80F
--pH: 7.2
--GH: no test kit for this test
--KH: no test kit for this test
--Ammonia: 0ppm
--Nitrate: 0.2ppm
--Nitrite: 0ppm
--Water change frequency: 25%-30% weekly
Tank set up
--Size: 10ltr
--Substrate: sand
--Filtration: sponge filter
--Furnishings: small pots to hide in, plants
--How long has it been set-up? filter and sand from a tank that's been going for 7 months
--Is there a heater in the tank? No - room heated

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 18 Apr 2007, 20:47

Other than the temperatures being a little higher than Pandas supposedly like, I don't see a problem with your paramaters. But I wonder if you've got too much uneaten food decaying, unseen. I've noticed my pandas seem really sensitive to the cleanliness of the substrate. I recently switched from sand to fine gravel--not because of problems with the sand, but because I've been finding that I just have to change out the substrate since I can't vacuum sand clean enough to suit the pandas. I can't really vacuum this gravel, either. I have just resolved myself to keeping the level to about a centimeter and changing it all out for new when it gets full of poo or rejected food.

You feed more often and more variety than I do on a given day, and I know I've had problems with overfeeding even with what I considered a modest schedule and a modest amount. It hasn't affected my readings but I will get algae and sleepy-looking fish when this happens. I keep trying to ratchet down the feedings but whenever I add new fish, it takes me awhile to relearn how much is the optimal amount.

The downside to changing out substrate is in the two times I've done it so far, I've had a panda death after putting the new substrate in, even though I never noticed water clouding. I don't think it has anything to do with the new substrate, but rather from stirring up bad stuff in the existing substrate as I'm moving decorations to siphon out the substrate. Next time I do a substrate change, I'll round up the pandas and put them in a bucket. Substrate changes generally only take me a few minutes not counting the time I wash the new substrate.

As for the ailment in your lumpy panda--it is probably best to euthanize. It could be an encysted parasite--which is something you don't want spread around. And if it's a tumor...there's not much you can do for that. And other than the lump, your symptoms are very much like the ones mine have exhibited when they died.

I don't feed live food due to risk of introducing pathogens and parasites. Still, when I'm going to have a problem with someone coming down with swim-bladder ailment type symptoms, it's been generally after feeding a freeze-dried "sterilized" worm of some sort...even after I pre-soak them. And it's been in fish who had already been looking a little "off" prior. I think the food just pushes them over the edge.

I think it was MatsP who said overfeeding kills more fish than anything else. And if it wasn't MatsP, it was definitely somebody else very experienced. Feeding is, I'm finding, one of the hardest aspects of fishkeeping to get just right. It's not just amounts, its the type of food, the frequency, even the timing of the feeding that all seem to affect their health.

I'm sorry for your problems. In the future, if you need to treat for fungus, you might want to try Jungle Buddie Anti Fungus fizzing tablets. These will dye your substrate and some of your tank decor but not your fish. I've used this in with pandas before and it didn't affect their colors at all. JBAF seems pretty effective--it totally helped a Paleatus I had that seemed to be getting a case of pop-eye and eye clouding.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 18 Apr 2007, 21:11

-nods- I feed so many times a day as I feed very very small amounts.

I don't want to loose him, but he isn't any better and he isn't getting any worse. I just hate to put him down and have there been something I could do. Put my cat down not long ago and still recovering. I must be the worst fish breeder alive.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 19 Apr 2007, 11:41

Oh I'm so very sorry about your cat. I totally understand and please accept my sympathies on your loss. My cat just passed away too and his passing broke our hearts. And just a couple of days later my daughter's beloved betta died of all the parasites he was infested with. My daughter is only two and a half and already has had to deal with hard-hitting loss and asking me the big questions nobody can really answer, like why bad things happen to good pets. Sheesh--didn't think I'd be dealing with conversations like that with her for several years yet.

So, when my own Panda cory got sick seemingly overnight and died on me Tuesday, I took it really hard, too. I had him in a big cup and was trying to figure out if I should medicate him or what...and he just faded away while I hedged on what to do. I'm a grown woman but when my husband came home from work I cried like a baby and felt I must be the worst cory keeper in the world.

But in my heart, I know I'm not. I've done everything I can possibly do at my level of knowledge. My parameters are good. I'm doing the best I can. I may still be dealing with illness that came in from the LFS. Or maybe I made some mistake. That doesn't make me a bad fishkeeper. It is an enormously complex undertaking to keep alive animals that live in an environment as alien to our own as fish do. You have to be a chemist, a dietician, a biologist, a parasitologist, an engineer, a geneticist...and that's just the list I can come up with at the top of my head...with a migraine.

So, don't beat yourself up. And nobody's got a stopwatch on you. If you want to keep your panda alive, where he is, I'm sure no harm is done if you are careful to avoid cross contamination of anything you use for the panda with your equipment and supplies for your healthy fish. I even go so far as to wear latex or vinyl disposable gloves when I am dealing with a hospital tank situation. I use disposable or cheap slotted spoons and paper plates and disposable plastic cups instead of my regular nets and so forth.

As regards the feeding, you may need to just feed one kind of food per day. One day it can be the prepared foods like flake or pellets. Another day it can be a worm day...and so forth. Maybe without so many variables in their diet in one day, you can zero in on any problems with one particular kind of food.

I am concerned your Panda may have a parasite. I had just gone through that with my daughter's now deceased betta. He had anchor worm. I had never seen one before so I didn't know it was a parasite at first--thought it was some odd finnage. Jungle Buddies tablets made it drop off. Then he developed nodules under his skin, which I believe were encysted parasites. He also had Velvet, the start of Ich--which again, medication stopped immediately, and dropsy.

Here's a link to a page about parasites: http://warnell.forestry.uga.edu/service ... ry%5B%5D=1

I'm sure if you do a more thorough web search you can find better information for your situation and to help you identify what you're seeing.

Please do be careful with the live foods. I remember my dad feeding live tubifex and brine shrimp to our fish with no problems whatsoever. But now I've come across so many warnings about parasites infesting live foods that I just can't take the chance. I won't even buy live plants unless they are sold in the somewhat sterile packages.

There have always been diseases and parasites, but I really do think nowadays we run into them more trouble with them than we did in the past. I'm not sure why that is, but I just know I'm seeing people take more precautions now and yet running into more illness than they did when I was a kid and people kind of just did pretty much anything without thinking about it too much.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 19 Apr 2007, 13:09

I've been treating him with Flubenol-15 which should kill parasites. I'm not sure what to do really. Every tank has its own net and kit.

I donno, I really just don't know what to do at all.

Going to go sit in the fish room and have a think, cause I don't know what else to go.

NEONCORY · Post by **NEONCORY** » 19 Apr 2007, 20:18

Hi saphphx,

I see you posted here. I'm sorry nobody can offer the solution(other than put it to sleep) any fish person like to see yet.

There are only few things I can think of you can do other than you know what.

Try local Aquarium, Aquarium society(club) and vet to see if anyone had dealt same/similar symptom before. There might be some expert or some fish nut who even might operate to eliminate the tumor/cyst/parasite whatever cause the bump of the fish.

Mean while, s/he is eating and swim normally, I would keep him/her in the hospital tank if I were you. If once s/he starts show the sign of degeneration, you probably should put it to sleep.

It is not fun or enjoyable part of the hobby but it does happen sometime.

All you can do is create and maintain the most optimal condition for them and hope your fish is healthy.
Good luck.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 19 Apr 2007, 22:28

Little blue took a horrible turn for the worse. I thought he was dead, scooped him into a cup and started to go to burry him and he twitched his fin, he was breathing but just, he wiggled but couldnt swim and was stuck on his side or back, gills red, fins clamped, he looked like he was in horrible pain.

9.40pm - Started the process of overdosing on Liquisil General Tonic 4mil to around 1/2 cup of water
9.44pm - Put him in fridge once he stopped trying to swim
10.04pm - no noticeable breathing.

Blessed be, Little Blue. I'm sorry I couldn't do more, and I am sorry I tried for so long and refused to let go. I hope you are reunited with your panda friends and feel much better.

It hurts me so bad to have put him down, I wish I had clove oil as I would have more confidence that he wouldn't be in pain, but I did the best I can. Will be getting some clove oil to be ready for the next time and pray there never is a next time. I love my fish, I love Little Blue. As much as it hurts me, I know it no longer hurts him.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 21 Apr 2007, 05:58

I tried posting last night but my internet connection went all flakey and slow on me. I am SO sorry for your loss. I can see you're taking it hard and I can totally sympathize, going through the same thing myself.

You did the best you could for Blue. I love my fish, too. The thing I hate most when Panda cories pass on is that they seem to be looking right up at you when you're tending to them. All cories will look at you and of course many of them wink. But Pandas seem to really look you in the eye.

I just had one start to go totally ghost white on me yesterday. Today he was so absolutely totally white that he looked like one of my albino cories. I did a 60% water change and he's gradually getting some color back. Everyone else looks absolutely fantastic, including my other pandas, so I have no idea what happened with this one.

However, as a side trip amongst other errands, last night I did go to the LFS where I got my pandas and took a look at the tank they came from. Almost all of the pandas in it were either dead, or ghost pale, or if they had color, were lethargic and not moving! One poor guy had no fins at all. I don't know if he was dead or not. There are angelfish in that tank and the angels look perfectly healthy, but they are all huddled in one corner of the tank. I don't know if the angels attacked the pandas or not.

My last 3 pandas were part of this now dying stock. I lost all 3 over the course of several days, and I thought it was my fault--that maybe I killed them because I tried to drip-acclimate them in a bucket instead of just floating their bag in the tank like I'd done for earlier pandas. Having them in a bucket seemed to really scare them. It seems to bother all of the fish I've tried acclimating in a bucket, so I now have an acrylic holding container to work with instead.

But now I think they must have been sick when I got them. I think I still have the original 3 panda cories I first bought--they are more grown than the newer ones, of course, so that's how I can tell. But I think that tank they all were kept in has broken down over time and subsequent stock has gotten progressively sicker and sicker. It's the only way I can explain how the fish look in the LFS, and what's been happening with each successive purchase.

I've given up trying to have a panda cory shoal...or so I keep telling myself. I've not had much luck with them or Sterba. I mean, their ailments & decline would come out of nowhere and strike without warning.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 21 Apr 2007, 09:04

-hugs- the lost panda society.

I've been told pandas like tanks over a year old and in top condition. I am down to 16 pandas now, I wont be buying more I think. Out of my Sterbai I only lost one as he wedged himself under the heater and slow cooked.

I think you're right with the fish shop tank. Mine were with barbs and had serious fish rippage.

I give up on pandas. My first two I kept horribally in a goldfish tank, they're massive and going strong, yet these ones live in the palace of all tanks with perfect water and keep snuffing it.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 22 Apr 2007, 09:16

The Lost panda Society--yeah, that's a fitting name.

My little white panda is hanging in there but barely. My husband and daughter have gone to bed and I should be asleep now, too, as we've got loads of activities planned for tomorrow. But I'm kind of holding a vigil for the panda.

I came close to euthanizing him many times earlier in the evening, and once I thought for sure he/she was dead. But mysteriously he'd pop back up and take a little swim. He's now in the little acrylic holding "tank". It's actually a very small container--suitable for doing dips and short quarantines but not much else. He got some of his striping back but I can see his internal organs on one side--they've darkened. And there's this weird dark dot on the bottom of him, maybe it's poop, I don't know.

I just did a water test earlier this evening. Parameters are good but I know I've got a bit of a pollution problem because of the algae in there. I have a second Eheim (Classic 2213) on order that I'll put into action as a bigger biological filter, so that I can have the Ecco devoted more fully to mechanical and chemical filtration.

My tank is overstocked, too, and while that does not seem to be a problem for everyone else, I guess it's not good for pandas, even though I actually enjoy changing the water and do at least 2 buckets daily, and usually more. I have a fat little cichlid in there making pooballs, so I also vacuum up the poops faithfully. My stock will be divided up into two tanks before long. I did have a second tank set up but it was too small to be worth the bother of upkeep. My new second will be 50 gallons, minimum. I was going to wait until our family room was remodeled before putting up a second tank. But that was before we adopted Clementine (the funny fat little cichlid), to kind of take away some of the pain of losing our cat--she is goofy and eccentric and weird in the same way our cat was and brought us smiles and laughter when it was much needed. The little cichlid and the bigger of my cories and my danios will go into the newer bigger tank. My current 40 gallon will be for my paleatus and my elegans and whatever's left of my pandas. Clementine gets along fantastically with cories and almost acts like she thinks she's one of them. She's almost big enough to eat the pandas but they actually nap in the cave with her quite often and the only time she ever does anything to anybody is when the cave gets too full of the larger cories and she finds herself poked in the butt with sharp little dorsal rays. Then she kind of sweeps everyone out or picks up bits of gravel and zings them at the cories until they swim off...for awhile. Invariably they go back in again. And it's hilarious when they push an algae wafer in there--then it's quite a melee but nobody ever gets hurt and everyone ends up quite stuffed!

But Clemmie's not even close to mature yet, and with maturity comes aggression, so I may end up having to evacuate her tankmates when she's got her full growth. If that ends up being the case, I'll want the 40 gallon with enough freed capacity to take back any refugees.

I'll try again to have a small panda shoal someday because they are just too endearing to be without. I'll do it when the tanks are more mature and when I am more mature as a fishkeeper, too.

Well I guess I'd better brace myself and go back down to check on my sick panda.

If he's still alive, I'll refresh his water.

Once again I'm so terribly sorry for your loss. And thank you for letting me talk...er..write, about mine. Blessings to us both and our remaining fish.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 22 Apr 2007, 17:02

The commercially available Panda Corys don't score very high in my system of rating hardiness. They seem to be very sensitive to diseases and initiatlly often very difficult to bring into peak condition.

It took me several attempt before I was able to develop a breeding colony. I don't think it has very much to do with your technique.

One perfectly safe live food that is perfect for Pandas is live cultured Grindal Worms. They are easy to culture and are a perfect food for Panda, other Corys and small enough that even juvenile Corys can eat them whole or chopped depending on the size of the fry.

You may want to try to get these worms going before you take another run at keeping and breeding Pandas.
I think you will be pleased with the results.

I use live blackworms and have made the deciscion that their benefits outweigh the risks. I use them on all my fish including the discus I raise. I just never use dirty or dying blackworms. I go through 1-1/2 pounds of them every week.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 22 Apr 2007, 22:50

hellocatfish wrote:The Lost panda Society--yeah, that's a fitting name.

My little white panda is hanging in there but barely. My husband and daughter have gone to bed and I should be asleep now, too, as we've got loads of activities planned for tomorrow. But I'm kind of holding a vigil for the panda.

-hugs- sometimes its hard to know what's best. I put my very ill cat through surgery to see if they could remove the mass in her stomach, turned out that cancer ate away her whole liver and there was no hope. I feel so guilty for putting her through it.

I don't know what else to say. You don't sound over stocked to me, and maybe to much water changing is messing up the pandas adjusting. Saying that I've left my tank for a week and Little Blue's mate has gone a bit off, so will be moving the pandas upstairs to a bigger more well cared for tank I think, or keeping them set off from the rest incase its infection. I haven't decided yet..

I don't know what else to say, but I will always be here to listen

-hugs- good luck to you and Little White

apistomaster wrote:The commercially available Panda Corys don't score very high in my system of rating hardiness. They seem to be very sensitive to diseases and initiatlly often very difficult to bring into peak condition.

It took me several attempt before I was able to develop a breeding colony. I don't think it has very much to do with your technique.

One perfectly safe live food that is perfect for Pandas is live cultured Grindal Worms. They are easy to culture and are a perfect food for Panda, other Corys and small enough that even juvenile Corys can eat them whole or chopped depending on the size of the fry.

You may want to try to get these worms going before you take another run at keeping and breeding Pandas.
I think you will be pleased with the results.

I use live blackworms and have made the deciscion that their benefits outweigh the risks. I use them on all my fish including the discus I raise. I just never use dirty or dying blackworms. I go through 1-1/2 pounds of them every week.

Yeah. I'm debating trying to find wild caught stock, but I have mixed feelings about that to be honest. I think its because they were hard to get they are now mass bred and still hard to get but weaker for it.

Will have to look into the grindal worms when I get some spare cash, thanks for that.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 23 Apr 2007, 08:20

I'm so sorry about your cat. My cat had something wrong with his stomach, too. It had plagued him all the years that we had him but the doctors could never do anything about it even after hundreds of dollars worth of tests. I took him in from the street so I don't know his history. He was emaciated when I got him and then he was overweight for a long time and then thin again, and through it all he battled severe irritable bowel syndrome. So I can just imagine what you went through with your cat.

Sadly, my panda did not make it. When I went down to check on him he had a very faint spasmodic twitch. I could get no other reaction out of him, so I laid him out in my front garden. It was very cold outside and he was completely still within a few seconds of my putting him down on the soil.

My remaining fish look very well at present. I have 4 panda cories left and they are as busy and panda-ish as ever.

I possibly do over-do the water changes. I'm a little confused about that. I thought changing out a couple of 3 gallon buckets worth of water a day was a good habit to be in with Pandas, especially as I was also suctioning up poo and any uneaten food I'd come across. But maybe it throws something off. It could be a bit much. I will scale it back to every other day and see if that helps. If not, I'll cut it down further until I feel it is hurting my nitrate readings.

It's my nitrate readings that convince me I'm overstocked. I've never had them climb fast before, but they do now. The fish seem very happy to have many tankmates, so from a social standpoint it's a successful community. And all of my fish are still juveniles so I felt safe having as many as I do in one tank as long as it's not going to be a long-term arrangement. And then I have a lot of slimey goop and algae that builds up on my glass and my caves fast. I don't even light the tank all that much since getting Clementine, who prefers ambient room lighting to direct overhead tank lighting... and still I get this stuff.

I just hope when it does come time to divide them that they don't feel socially understocked. They really kicked into happy mode when the cich*lid came to live with them. I thought they would be scared out of their wits, but then Clementine started surfing the current out of the Eheim Ecco and proved she was as nutty as any of the cories in that respect. At first I thought she just had an unfortunate accident but after watching her do it over and over again, I realized the girl was surfing and if a fish could yell "Wheee!" that would be what I'd be hearing out of Clementine. I wonder if this is learned behavior she got watching the cories do it. I'm so glad I have her. Losing the pandas would have been utterly unbearable if not for Clemmie's antics.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 23 Apr 2007, 08:30

Yikes, I just saw your post about your other Panda cory coming down with the same symptoms as Little Blue. My heart sank. I refrained from posting there on that topic so you can have that topic open for people who may actually be able to help you.

When mine started the rear-end floating, I found no turning point back thus far.

However when I have had the Pandas or any other of my cories grow inexplicably lethargic, I had found that dosing the tank at the rate of 1 tablespoon per 5 US gallons of API Aquarium Salt seemed to bring everyone back to life, even when paramters tested normal. I never incurred any losses that I can recall after a salting of the tank. My guess is that despite what the test results might be saying, the salt was probably helping with trace amounts of irritating nitrites. Or maybe taking out an incipient bacteria problem before it got to the point of needing antibiotics to be eradicated.

I only let the salt stay at that level for about a day, and then I start gradually changing it out through water changes.

But as I said, it only works when the first sign is unusual lethargy. Once the back ends start floating, I've never had any medication do a thing for them.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 23 Apr 2007, 09:46

hellocatfish wrote:I'm so sorry about your cat. My cat had something wrong with his stomach, too. It had plagued him all the years that we had him but the doctors could never do anything about it even after hundreds of dollars worth of tests. I took him in from the street so I don't know his history. He was emaciated when I got him and then he was overweight for a long time and then thin again, and through it all he battled severe irritable bowel syndrome. So I can just imagine what you went through with your cat.

With my first cat he just got thinner and thinner and after a long time he suddenly had a fit then went still, the found out it was a brain tumor and put him down. Cat goes oddly thin and they tested for flippin everything but cancer, morons,

-hugs-

hellocatfish wrote:Sadly, my panda did not make it. When I went down to check on him he had a very faint spasmodic twitch. I could get no other reaction out of him, so I laid him out in my front garden. It was very cold outside and he was completely still within a few seconds of my putting him down on the soil.

-hugs- I am very sory to hear that. helping them on their way to the Panda Palace is the hardest thing to do.

hellocatfish wrote:My remaining fish look very well at present. I have 4 panda cories left and they are as busy and panda-ish as ever.

out of the two panda tanks I have, 1 panda in each has gone wrong, and the rest are just happy little bunnies bopping about and playing in the current.

hellocatfish wrote:I possibly do over-do the water changes. I'm a little confused about that. I thought changing out a couple of 3 gallon buckets worth of water a day was a good habit to be in with Pandas, especially as I was also suctioning up poo and any uneaten food I'd come across. But maybe it throws something off. It could be a bit much. I will scale it back to every other day and see if that helps. If not, I'll cut it down further until I feel it is hurting my nitrate readings.

I would. With pandas I find it best to do one slow big one, syphon the water in and out and mess them about as little as possible until they are bigger. These days as the Pandas were hard to get they are now as mass bred as pandas can be, which makes them weak fish. Over all, I've been advised that the less you mess with the tank the happier the fish, saying that I can leave a tank for weeks, use the filter to pump water out and syphon the water slowly back in by the filter so the fish never notice and have some stress out and die, where my husband daily pets his plec and other fish, and they are massive, fat, happy, over fed, never see a water change fish you will EVER meet.

hellocatfish wrote:It's my nitrate readings that convince me I'm overstocked. I've never had them climb fast before, but they do now. The fish seem very happy to have many tankmates, so from a social standpoint it's a successful community. And all of my fish are still juveniles so I felt safe having as many as I do in one tank as long as it's not going to be a long-term arrangement. And then I have a lot of slimey goop and algae that builds up on my glass and my caves fast. I don't even light the tank all that much since getting Clementine, who prefers ambient room lighting to direct overhead tank lighting... and still I get this stuff.

You're tank could be having problems getting cycled. Let me help you and take my mind off my fishies? How big is each set of fish, how many fish, filter, tank size and how long has it all been set up, and how long have you had each set of fish? All important stuff. I am queen of over stocking, but I am tempted to set up a 4 foot and just put my tiny remaining pandas in it just to be sure lol.

hellocatfish wrote:I just hope when it does come time to divide them that they don't feel socially understocked. They really kicked into happy mode when the cich*lid came to live with them. I thought they would be scared out of their wits, but then Clementine started surfing the current out of the Eheim Ecco and proved she was as nutty as any of the cories in that respect. At first I thought she just had an unfortunate accident but after watching her do it over and over again, I realized the girl was surfing and if a fish could yell "Wheee!" that would be what I'd be hearing out of Clementine. I wonder if this is learned behavior she got watching the cories do it. I'm so glad I have her. Losing the pandas would have been utterly unbearable if not for Clemmie's antics.

lol my corys and other fish do that all the time! Filter Surfing fish rock

Its normally the clowns, but every now and then you get a panda doing it. My other corys do it all the time, but the pandas seem to be Upper Class and "Don't play about, we look for food, we sleep, we panda pile and we wink at you but not your husband as its fun when he thinks your nuts!"

Depending on what type of cich Clemmie is and how big she gets and personality, you may be able to keep adult pandas with her or other adult corys. My betta sulks without his cory trio - but they thought his tail was food when he was napping with them lol. Long stringy white tail would look like worm I suppose

hellocatfish wrote:Yikes, I just saw your post about your other Panda cory coming down with the same symptoms as Little Blue. My heart sank. I refrained from posting there on that topic so you can have that topic open for people who may actually be able to help you.

I have 2 that have gone wrong. Another panda in an un-related tank has gone very wrong and kept falling on his side and everyone else was fine. I took him out and put him in a little tank on his own, this morning he looks much better but still not top notch.

hellocatfish wrote:When mine started the rear-end floating, I found no turning point back thus far.

Not good news, but I have to say I second it. Seems some get better for a bit then suddenly die.

hellocatfish wrote:However when I have had the Pandas or any other of my cories grow inexplicably lethargic, I had found that dosing the tank at the rate of 1 tablespoon per 5 US gallons of API Aquarium Salt seemed to bring everyone back to life, even when paramters tested normal. I never incurred any losses that I can recall after a salting of the tank. My guess is that despite what the test results might be saying, the salt was probably helping with trace amounts of irritating nitrites. Or maybe taking out an incipient bacteria problem before it got to the point of needing antibiotics to be eradicated.

I only let the salt stay at that level for about a day, and then I start gradually changing it out through water changes.

But as I said, it only works when the first sign is unusual lethargy. Once the back ends start floating, I've never had any medication do a thing for them.

Ah NO! No no no salt for corys my dear!! NO SALT! They really REALLY don't like salt.They really hate salt, if it HAS to be used, very little for very short amounts of time.

I would never use it to be honest with corys. Seems everyone who uses even half the dose looses all sorts of corys, even to daily woes like ick on peppered corys and things like that.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 25 Apr 2007, 00:58

Hi, My new Eheim Classic just arrived so I don't have much time to post. My fish sizes are all around an inch or less, with just two paleatus being over an inch long. Everyone is very thin, except for the Paleatus. Clemmie is small--about 2.5 inches long, 2 inches high, slender.

According to my readings the tank is cycled, but I'm sure as I was recently adding fish each week to fill out my shoals that it put a bit of a strain on the filtration and created very small spikes. Everything seems to have settled down once again. I forget when I set up this tank, to be honest. Recent migraines have driven memories right out of my head. I'd have to look back over my old posts to see.

My cories never seemed to mind the salt, but I would put it into the Top Fin filter where it would dissolve and leach out into the tank. And I'd add it slowly--a tablespoon per hour. The funny thing I noticed about the salt was that it made everyone think there was food in the tank and they'd start scouring the tank for food. It's lousy for plants, though. For that reason alone I limit its use. I don't have any live plants in the tank now, but I just bought some new ones to add and I'd prefer not to salt them to death!

Filtration is an Eheim Ecco 2236 rated for a much larger tank. And I'm going to add the Eheim Classic 2213 rated for 55 gallon tanks probably after I finish this post, assuming my daughter will agree to color quietly in her coloring book and not drive me out of my mind.

Catch you later!

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 25 Apr 2007, 11:03

to be honest I wouldn't think at the moment you are over stocked. If you left them there while they grow to adults you may be, but at the moment it sounds fine.

I would think in this case you may be over feeding them a tad if you're getting spikes still.

I over feed all my fish LMAO! Specially my fry, as I only have the time for 2-3 feeds and not 5-6 they get food dumped on in the morning and evening, but I do 50% water changes on their tubs once but normally twice a day, so there ya go

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 28 Apr 2007, 08:14

I took out the Ecco and discovered it was chock full of the cichlid flakes that I thought had been eaten. I just can't get these guys to accept flake food. They love pellets but turn up their whiskered noses at the flake. Or...maybe I did put too much in. But I know the cichlid and the danios did not eat it. I did see the cories eat some of it.

I'm still getting the hang of feeding, that is for sure.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 28 Apr 2007, 12:04

I use floating pellets for cichlids. For the corys I use sinking goldfish food as well as sinking cory food. My husbands corys will have flaked, but only certian sizes and things.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 28 Apr 2007, 12:09

as a side note.. why on earth is c i c h l i d s censored?

How weird.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 29 Apr 2007, 17:39

The words c*chlid and Pl*co are censored due to some weird superstition that if you write out those words in a post something will happen to your fish.

It's some weird internet-fish-hobbyist tradition and it seems to be standard on all the fish forums I've seen so far. I've never quite made up my mind on whether I'm superstitious or not. It seems to depend on my mood at any given moment.

Clementine sat on my pandas last night. I have only 4 left and she sat on all of them. They were trying to eat a sinking wafer and she swam over and just sat on the whole lot of them. They didn't even bother to try and move--when she got off of them they just popped back up and their little dorsal fins popped back up. It was the craziest thing I have seen so far! I know she wouldn't dare try that with the aeneus!

The pandas follow her around like she's some sort of mother. When I was reinstalling plants into the tank, they all skittered under her for protection. However, she is a cichlid and when in the mood, she will go through the whole tank hunting the cories. If she finds one of the larger ones she lunges at it, bumps it with her mouth, and if the cory was resting, it just jumps ahead an inch or so and resumes napping.

So, I'm hoping the cories will keep up their growth enough to continue to foil any attempts to eat them--because Clemmie and the cories are too much fun to watch together. She is physically unable to nip using her visible mouth, but she does have an inner mouth with a nice set of teeth, so I will always have to be aware of that.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 29 Apr 2007, 17:57

that's really weird lol. I've never noticed that at all in other forums. ah well

Maybe I should stop saying P***a and c***dora. lol couldn't hurt

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 29 Apr 2007, 18:44

saphphx wrote:as a side note.. why on earth is c i c h l i d s censored?

How weird.

It's answered in the FAQ , positioned in the drop down for Help! in the toolbar.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 29 Apr 2007, 19:47

thanks

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 30 Apr 2007, 06:01

Saphphx, do you keep your cories in with your c i chlid? When I move Clementine into her bigger tank along with the bigger of my cories, I'd like to get another c-ichl*id for the 40 gallon. But I'd want one that doesn't get to be too big, and one who will get along well with cories. So far the only one I could come up with that will be the size I can deal with (6 inches, max) and temperament (when kept singly) is Herotilapia Multispinosa/Rainbow C*chlid. Whatever I get, I want one who doesn't mind being kept as the only one of its kind in the tank, just in case I need to put all of Clementine's cories back into the 40 gallon and keep Clementine with tougher fish. But I don't want Rams--my water is 7.8 in pH and Rams may be a bit smaller than what I'm looking for. I like Kribs, too, but I've only ever had a breeding pair and don't know if they mind being kept alone. Also--they can be a mite ornery.

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 30 Apr 2007, 11:38

I have no idea. the only cichlid I own is a b**stard oscar of doom named Pita (short for Pain in the a** - so you can guess

) and he sulks and starves himself if he isn't with the bichir, so I have no idea about them or what to keep them with to be honest. Sorry :/

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 May 2007, 05:59

That's funny about your Oscar. I had them when I was a kid. There was more than one and they all grew to enormous sizes, but I only remember the last one we had when I was a little older. He was literally a tank buster--he was such a sweet fish but kind of like a large rambunctious dog that doesn't know it is knocking over Mom's best vase with it's crazy wagging tail. Well our Oscar was like that. The tanks were in the basement and he would go absolutely crazy when I'd come down to visit with him. I used to bring him earthworms and other bugs and so he'd get so excited at the sight of me he would thrash around and send parts of his filter inlet tube flying around the tank. One time he somehow cracked his tank. Too bad acrylic tanks weren't available back then. He's one fish who could have used one.

So how are your panda cories doing? I still have 4 remaining, and so far they are doing well...knock wood and hold that thought! So much for my not being superstitious!

I so badly want to restock back to 8 or 10 pandas, but everyone is looking so well, I don't dare rock the boat. I'll just sit back and enjoy the tank. I finally have it all replanted and looking the way I want. Clementine sometimes nibbles on the plants, but she's been pretty good about working on just one leaf on one plant at a time, so the damage is very slow and bearable. Oddly enough, she's done more damage to the silk plants. I came down one morning to find a couple of the silk leaves ripped off and lying on the substrate.

Bet she was complaining about how lousy of a salad buffet I provide!

saphphx · Post by **saphphx** » 01 May 2007, 09:18

LOL mine trashed the fake ones and left the real ones

I donno. I gave up on counting and watching. They all seem there still, though they've distroyed all the java moss in the tank, other then that they all seem ok. Not noticed any dead ones, touch wood. I wont be getting more though, I'll get a betta or something LMAO

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 01 May 2007, 19:55

Oy! I've had bad luck with bettas. It's hard to get them in good shape from the LFS. Fortunately, my daughter's betta who had a spot of ich or ick made a full recovery. He caught it from the female betta I'd tried to put in with him (same tank, but with a divider between them).

I see less of my pandas now that there are only 4 of them. They tend to stay in more sheltered areas of the tank now instead of buzzing around all over like they did when they were a full school. But I don't see how I could restock their school safely without having a quarantine tank anymore for the new arrivals. I still also worry about overstocking. As teeny tiny as they are, every little fish adds up. Best to wait until I have 2 large tanks. I have enough Aeneus, enough Paleatus--just need to get the Sterba back up in number and the pandas. I'm thinking of adding more elegans, too, since the one I have has been doing an incredible job of eating some kind of white mystery mold that recently cropped up on my tank glass. It's cropped up twice now and the first time it disappeared while I was out, and this time I got to see the Elegans diligently sucking it off the glass. I like her for other reasons, too. When I first had my tank set up, I had 2 cories take ill and eventually die. She stayed with them faithfully the entire time, leaving only to eat, and showing reluctance even then. They weren't even her species, but she showed what looked like friendship.

She's a very plain looking fish who looks more like a carp than a cory, which is why I had never bothered to get more--aside from the fact I rarely see Elegans around. But she's a beauty personity-wise and an asset to her community.

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 01 May 2007, 21:15

I'll be bad

Why don't you both talk via PM's or e-mail.