Leaf Litter - what is safe?

CatBrat · Post by **CatBrat** » 01 Apr 2007, 11:17

Hey All,
I am in the process of setting up a tank for my Banjo Cats, and I am planning on using a layer of leaf litter for them. Are there any leaves that I should not use? any thing I should look out for? I did a forum seach and found that Oak leaves are used, any reason that these are good? or just easy to find for people?

I have a very large Magnolia grandiflora tree at home which I basically have an unlimited supply of leaves from year round, but I'm unsure weather they would be safe? They seem to have quite a shiny leaf, even when daed. Any ideas?

Also, has any one out there kept a tank like this before? any advice, or pictures would be great!!!

Cheers, Jake.

Post by **Shane** » 01 Apr 2007, 12:12

Oak leaves are commonly used as (for European and N. American hobbyists) they are easy to find. Just about any leaf should work as long is it is known not to be poisonous. Magnolia is fine with the bark and leaves used for many folk remedies. Believe it or not there are 100s of webpages about which plants are safe and which are not. They are written mainly for people with kids, but can help aquarists. Wait until the leaves are good and brown before using them. I would also soak them a few days, or even boil them, just to remove any hitchhikers.
I have kept several leaf litter tanks, Over several months the leaves will break down. Just siphon out the remnants at that point and add new leaves. There are some pics of a past leaf litter tank I had here:

-Shane

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 01 Apr 2007, 12:30

Hi,

Beech?

I'm sorry that I have no idea if beech trees are common in New Zealand or not.

I've had good results with beech and now is a good time of year to collect it for use as it's been drying out over the winter and will last in your tank for much longer if introduced in that state.

Jools

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 01 Apr 2007, 12:51

Here in europe mainly Beech and Oak are used, and Beech is considered the longer-lasting of the two.
However, if pH is 6.5 or lower, any leaf will last for long - in my aquarium with pH 7.5 a ficus leaf disappear in less than a week, in my pH 5 tank I've ficus leaves which have been in the water for three months and still look like new.

Leaves which degrade quickly, like ficus, are of course less of a problem than leaves which are toxic. You'll need to check around to find out which of your local species are toxic, but I can tell you as much as that you want to stay clear of Rhododendron/Azalea species (you have plenty of those in NZ, right?). Horse-Chestnut is another toxic species which presumably is commonly grown in NZ.

Other leaves I've used with success have been Maple, Birch, and Willow, although they all dissolved faster than Oak or Beech.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 26 Apr 2007, 11:49

What if the tree has been aprayed 4 years ago with cooper?Is it safe now to use leafs from it?
The tree in question is a Magnolia grandifolia...I never thought it would be ok to use its leaves...

Thank you very much in advance

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 26 Apr 2007, 15:02

I do not know if those leaves might still contain copper, but personally I would avoid any leaves I knew had been sprayed with any pesticides.

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 26 Apr 2007, 15:34

Mike_Noren wrote:However, if pH is 6.5 or lower, any leaf will last for long - in my aquarium with pH 7.5 a ficus leaf disappear in less than a week, in my pH 5 tank I've ficus leaves which have been in the water for three months and still look like new.

Thank you for this observation. I've made the same observation in a tank with cement used in it the leaves woud decay within days.

Apparently acidic water either protects them, or the leaves produce acid wich dissolves in basic water. In fact I think it is both.

My fishes further burries the leaves underthe sand, resulting in oxygen free processes, which result in many toxic by-products. when I realised what happened, I had to empty the whole tank, but did not loose fish.

This might be due to the fact I first siphoned a part of the water out, relatively clean, than tried to get the fishes, which took quite some time, took the time to habitate them to other tanks (I used twice the amount of buckets (and thus water) I would normally use) before I started to upturn and remouve the smelly soil in the now fish free tank.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 26 Apr 2007, 15:45

4 years have passed from this spraying and the leaves that were sprayed no longer exist of course...What bothers me is if the tree has absorbed this nasty by its roots...The only reason i thought that maybe it would be ok to use them is because the vines whose grapes we eat are all sprayed annually with this thing and more often than not even the grapes are sprayed with it while ripening...So the grapes we eat surely have this on them and the only thing we do for eat is wash them...I know that pretty well and first hand...

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 26 Apr 2007, 19:15

Don't worry too much about the leaves.

Firstly, plants all hav a protection in the roots preventing unwanted minerals from the soil entering the plant iself. They have a layer of cells, covering the plant 'piping', which cells are firmly fixed in position and size using cork. (look at Casparie in a Biology book). Thus all minerals will have to go through these cells specialised to keep some out.

Secondly, copper is a mineral one's body uses, and thus can keep track of. Normal tapwater in the Netherlands, which is transported through copper tubings (such as my house)does contain a very limited amount of copper - 10 ppm typically.

This is more than natural, but fish can cope with it very well. In fact, it helpes them grow fast.

However, I think you will agree that given the water does contain some sopper, the quite minute amount op copper in the leaves (if any) will not do much harm (if any)

B-2 · Post by **B-2** » 26 May 2007, 04:12

I used oak leaves in my tank before. I collected them in the fall, since they often don't fall off the tree like other leaves do.

irene0100 · Post by **irene0100** » 26 May 2007, 15:56

Hi, I use oak leaves. I wash them well then give them a few moments in the microwave to kill any bacteria, then they go into the tank, in a steel clip, or dry completely in a warm place than air tight bags for storage for use in the summer when cannot get brown leaves.

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 11 Sep 2007, 16:00

Just to let you know,i used the magnolia leaves i was telling you about and everything is fine

I used two some months ago with no problems and last Wednesday i added three more...They look great underwater and seem to be perfect for leaf litter due to shape and size if you dont have fish that eat them

My Panaque seems to like them a lot as a few days after they sunk the first time,he started plugging holes on them...About a month after,only the margins and the main vein had been left...

Something that passed from my mind recently,after searching a bit for Alder cones(and not being able to get hold of them easily...) and after reading that Magnolia grandifolia is not toxic in general is if Magnolia cones are safe to put in the aquarium...Magnolia's seed containing structures are very similar in purpose to the Alder cones,are much much bigger and i think have the same or bigger proportion in tannins as they are solid black in color and woody...So i think they would do a great job if they are safe...

Does anybody know if they are safe to put in the aquarium?

Thank you very much in advance

FuglyDragon · Post by **FuglyDragon** » 11 Sep 2007, 21:58

Hi catbrat.

I use copper beech tree leaves in my leaf litter tanks, have several whiptails spawning in them at the moment so they sem to like it ok.

I just boil them for twenty minutes or so then add to the tank when they have cooled.

Sand substate about 1cm deep.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 12 Sep 2007, 18:07

I've heard of several, very experienced aquarists using oak leaves they've collected around their houses, also with success. They swear by this for many species(Killies, Catfishes, etc). I'm also thinking of doing this for my Bunocephalus coracoideus (Banjos), too. At the moment, they seem to have taken to burying themselves in sand and under driftwood. The autumn oak leaves won't be falling for another month or so. I look forward to collecting them this year. Please let me know how you do!

Amanda

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 12 Sep 2007, 20:47

Thats easy...
You just select a tree you think its suitable(i.e. not having been sprayed with anything and its not close to a road with traffic) and then go search often for fallen leaves...Collect them as you find them...The faster you do it the cleaner the leaves will be...Then,you place them in an open bag and wait till they are completely dried.After,you rinse them with water and place them in the aquarium...

Thats how i collect my Magnolia leaves...(although i own the Magnolia and so i can go and collect any time i want and its not much effort for me to collect year round as it sheds at least 2-4 leaves a week...so i am not stuck with when it sheds although if i collect then,i fill a big bag in a day...)

Regarding the safety of magnolia cones,does anybody have a comment or know something on it?

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 18 Sep 2007, 07:57

After searching a bit about Magnolia cones toxicity,i found that the only part of the tree that its considered toxic is its flower(nausea,vomiting) and at a smaller extent,its fresh leaves(allergy to very sensitive people...)...It doesnt say that the cones are toxic,only the flower...So i assume they safe to use them right?

The only other thing i found about cones is that scientists recently found two anticancer agents on Magnolia grandiflora cones...These they say seem effective and are of very low toxicity...But i assume you need a lot of this thing and concentrated to do anything...So,can i put them in the aquarium as Panaque food or not?

Thank you very much in advnace

bslindgren · Post by **bslindgren** » 18 Oct 2007, 03:20

I've put oak leaves in and they have been fine. Check out this article http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/p ... ?blogid=56

Dread · Post by **Dread** » 29 Oct 2007, 11:55

Sorry to bring up an older topic, but I'd just like to put in my two cents. In my tanks, I use Quercus bicolor (Swamp White Oak), or Quercus Alba (normal White Oak), with great success. Both lower my tap pH from 6.6 to 5.5-6.0 depending on when and where I collect the leaves. I know that the soil from around the trees are full of NP&K, so these leech into the water and, if buried, into the substrate, so it does wonders for my plants, as well. Plus, I really like the tannin-stained look it gives the water.

I've also used Sugar Maple leaves(Acer saccharum I believe). The results were alright, but abit confusing. They stained the water with tannins, which for some reason (looking back, it was naive) led me to believe it was softening the water. I was wrong. It was releasing plenty of humic acids and tannic acids.. but somehow raising my hardness and pH. When I tested, the water went from my tap's 6.6pH to over 7.2, and was moderately harder. Aside from this, no adverse effects that I could see.

bslindgren · Post by **bslindgren** » 30 Oct 2007, 02:50

That's good information to have. Thanks! I've had no problems with my oak, which I believe is Quercus robur (European oak).

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 03 Nov 2007, 15:14

I'm going outside now, before tropical storm Noel kicks up and I lose my chance and everything goes into the storm drain!

Amanda

Kostas · Post by **Kostas** » 23 Nov 2007, 11:14

That surely will be a problem...No leaf litter in the whole area,

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » 23 Nov 2007, 11:16

I've used Indian almond leaves with no problems. In fact, my loaches, plecs, cories, tetras and gouramis like it.

Dread · Post by **Dread** » 24 Nov 2007, 05:39

Indian Almond Leaves are used by many Betta sp. experts for spawning.