Red Tailed Catfish - Phractocephalus

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 01 Mar 2007, 11:37

I'm new on this forums and I hope I posting in the right area.
I have a Red tail. I've had him since he was 6" now he is about 18". Love him to death. His name is Hunter (Catfish Hunter)

He has started in the last two weeks hanging out in the corner placing himself vertical or semi Vertical. He hasn't eaten in the last week like he usually does. Almost no eating. Is this normal behavior.

He is in a 125 gal. He eats large Krill/Shrimp.Was eating from my hand before this started. His PH is 6.8-7.0, Temp is 80
only have a bridge with one large pleco living under it and a small plastic garbage can (bathroom size)with the bottom cut out as a cave for him.
Water 1/3 change every week.

Am I getting worried for nothing?

Thanks

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Mar 2007, 12:14

Possibly worried about nothing. Large Pimelodids (which is the group your fish belongs to) do often eat less frequently as they grow older.

However, there also a potential problem with the fact that your fish will outgrow the tank-size and the filter capacity of most aquariums (this fish has the potential to grow to five feet or so, and really shouldn't be sold for home aquaria, but that's a differnet matter). The first sign that the filter is not coping would be a spike in ammonia and/or nitrite after feeding the fish. If you haven't got one right now, get a test-kit for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. You should aim to keep zero ammonia and nitrite and as low a level of nitrate as possible.

If you really want to keep this fish for the next 15-20 years (which is quite likely how long they will live in nature if they are not eaten or caught by fishermen), then you need to consider an indoor pond with a good setup of pond filtration - about 15-20 feet long and about 8-10 feet wide, and as deep as you can manage - at least four feet deepth. You also need to keep the temperature in the pond-room up to about 78-80'F - it's no good just heating the water, as that will most likely cause condensation problems.

--
Mats

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 02 Mar 2007, 00:33

Thanks for the reply.

I got this catfish to keep the bottom of my tank clean.
Being a novice when the guy in the store said he'll keep it clean I bought him cause he was pretty.

WELL after fish starting missing and he started getting bigger I went on the net and discovered what I had. I got another tall 125gal and moved everything out that still hadn't found it's way into his mouth.

I read what you wrote (I think it was you)before I joined these forums about owning one of these and they should'nt be sold to the public. I agree because I was a unspecting customer. But I have him now and it's a commitment. I guess I'm a softy but I can't just give him back to the store and hope they find him a decent home. I know he has one here.
BTW he still hasn't eaten

Post by **Shane** » 02 Mar 2007, 06:43

I got this catfish to keep the bottom of my tank clean.

A red tail sold as a worker catfish! You must have found the most dishonest retailer in the trade. That is like telling a car dealer you need something to get you to work everyday and leaving with an 18 wheeler and two trailers.

The best immediate first aid for an aquarium is a large volume water change. If you have not already, hit the tank with a 60% water change immediately and see if the animal perks up.
-Shane

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 02 Mar 2007, 07:00

Shane wrote:That is like telling a car dealer you need something to get you to work everyday and leaving with an 18 wheeler and two trailers.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 03 Mar 2007, 01:17

Sorry to bother you again.

I did the water change. Nitrite and Amonia are 0 PH is 6.8
But I was reading oxygen section in Shane's World and it mentioned gills curled. I went and checked pictures you have of Red Tails and they don't have them curled forward like my guy has.

I have air pump with a 18" bubbler on it. Is he getting enough oxegen?

Post by **medaka** » 04 Mar 2007, 20:57

Hi SuperMom

& welcome to Planet Catfish.

But I was reading oxygen section in Shane's World and it mentioned gills curled. I went and checked pictures you have of Red Tails and they don't have them curled forward like my guy has.

I have looked after quite a few RTC in my time and, to be honest flared gills are the result of constant poor water quality, if your LFS sold you the catfish like this, then coupled with (Shane wrote)

A red tail sold as a worker catfish! You must have found the most dishonest retailer in the trade.

makes me: -

However; back to : -

He has started in the last two weeks hanging out in the corner placing himself vertical or semi Vertical.

A few large water changes like Shane advises, and try adding an anti-parasite (internal) medicine.
On two occasions I have tried this on RTC that have been swimming/resting in a vertical position, and it has helped the Catfish to regain equilibrium and got them feeding again; after about a week. Although expect their flared gills to remain flared, there is no known remedy as far as I know for flared gills.
Although at 6 inches your RTC maybe to far gone for anything to work..

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 04 Mar 2007, 21:53

Sounds like his tank is not wide enough to me, A common reason for red tails, and other large pims to hang vertically. What are the dimensions of the tank? just stating the volume is often misleading.
What Mats and the others have said about all this is good stuff. His growth rate will slow down after he reaches two foot and will take years to grow to the above mentioned sizes.
I have seen a lot of 'abused' redtailed cats, they seem to have stayed in fashion around these parts, (not saying that yours is abused) and they react unfavourably not only to amonia and nitrite but also to nitrates.
To quote Dr David Sands, who if you have never heard of him wrote a most excelent book all about keeping red tails:-
"The minimum ratio for each foot of red tailed catfishshould be between 100-150gallons of aquarium water."
Your fish is suffering from 'excesive nitrates and reduced disolved oxygen' syndome. Symptoms:-
Long periods of fasting,Mucas shedding, yawning,itching,coughing,opengill cover,hanging near water surface.
Advice is to make imediate water change combined with a malachite/methylene 'dye' bacterial treatment (but I would personally use one of the new 'organic' bacterial treatments) coupled with a temporary reduction in feeding and a review of the aquarium and filter size.
These are the words from the man himself not me.
What and how much are you feeding him?
A problem with large carnivorous catfish in aquariums is that they have not the space to 'excercise' and so much of the food that they are fed is just ejected as waste compounding the problem. He should only be fed once or twice a week at this stage in his life.
Another note is that I would up the water changes to appx 50% of the tanks volume a week.
This can easily be done by emptying half the water, turning off the filter filling it up straight from the hot tap using a hose (with the temperature set to about 80f) along with chloromine/chlorine removers, and leave the filter off for 8 hours, keep only airstones/areation plus heaters running.
After eight hours turn the filter on again.
This should be done 24 hours after you have given him his weekly feed.
I know this sounds like a bizare regime, but I have been doing it on all my tanks for a long time now and the results are great, happier more active fish, and it's not that much hard work once you have been doing it for a while.
Any questions about the above advice don't hesitate to ask, I will keep an eye on this post.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 04 Mar 2007, 22:27

grokefish wrote: Advice is to make imediate water change combined with a malachite/methylene 'dye' bacterial treatment (but I would personally use one of the new 'organic' bacterial treatments)
Any questions about the above advice don't hesitate to ask, I will keep an eye on this post.

1. I change 1/3 water in his tank every week. Always. I have his ph at 6.8-7.0.
I just learned from these fourms about other test and did his amonia and nitrite and they came up good.
I've done a 50% water change after reading what has been written here on Friday.

2. I put three airstones in there and another air pump that does up to 60 gals. So he now has two air pumps (one duel) that both do up to 60 gals.
3. I put some mango in there and aspragus. (the big snail I got in there with him thinks he's died and gone to heaven)
4. Tank demenisons are 6'Lx20"Hx18"W
5. He is a little shy of 18" because I've seen him sit from back to front.
6. I am guilty of feeding him dried jumbo shrimp every night.
But in the last week and a half I've only fed him 4-5 peices of shrimp in that time period.

I'm just very very worried because he went from being a pig to no eating at all.

I did the 50% water change Friday, when can I change the filter. I was told not to do them at the same time? I changed it last month but I'm nervous and want to change it again.
Also I have live bacteria in the frig that I bought when I bought the testing kit in case his nitrate were bad. Should I put them in even though his water test were all good?
What are new 'organic'bacterial treatments you spoke of?

Thanks

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 05 Mar 2007, 12:01

I just learned from these fourms about other test and did his amonia and nitrite and they came up good.

Have you tried testing after feeding? Say at 10 mins, 1 hour and 3 hours after?

You don't mention what sort of filter you have, and perhaps there could be a surge in ammonia/nitrite after feeding that your tests aren't picking up.

The RTC needs a really big filter to cope with the massive amount of ammonia he produces.

I think now that your RTC is at 18", he is at the maximum size that your tank will support. His ill health is testament to this.

I would now consider either re-homing him or getting a bigger tank/pond.

Its a tough choice, but sadly so many die when kept in a tank too small.

Have a read of this.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Mar 2007, 14:13

Flared gills is DEFINITELY a sign of Nitrate levels being too high - which in turn is caused by keeping a large fish in a "too small" tank. Nitrate doesn't go away aside from by water changes and through plants - but I doubt that plants will work well in a large Pim tank, even if the fish doesn't eat the plants. More importantly, plants tend to not take up HUGE amounts of nitrate unless they are real pests...

You can add an adsorbtion resin to your filter (nitra-zorb for example), but it's only going to have a temporary effect (the resin needs frequent "recharging", as in every 24-48 hours). The only true way to keep check of nitrates is bigger water changes.

Note that a bigger tank in and of itself won't help in this, aside from, of course, doing 30% water change on a 250g tank replaces 80g of water, rather than 40g on a 125g tank.

As racoll mentions, the filter also need to cope with the ammonia/nitrite spikes that happen just after feeding. But I suspect the problem in your case is rather to do with long-term presence of nitrate than the short-term presence of nitrite or ammonia.

--
Mats

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 05 Mar 2007, 17:35

I can't mind what they are called but they are definately available here in the uk, I am sure they are available internationally. When I remember what they are sold as here I will post.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Mar 2007, 17:44

Both Rena and API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc.) have products called "Nitra Zorb", which are available in the UK. The latter is definitely available in the US as well - I haven't tried looking for the Rena product.

Google for "Nitra Zorb UK" and it turns up about 3000 hits, the first few are "good hits" at least.

There are other ways to do "nitrate adsorbtion", but all methods are pretty short-term measures (as the filter media in general depletes quite rapidly and/or is saturated with nitrogenous product).

Ah, the US has the "Rena" product under the name of "FilStar" - and available here: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fus ... 6/cid/1226

I have no connection with the above web-site - Apistomaster did mention it before (on the same subject in a completely different thread, but I just found it using google.

--
Mats

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 06 Mar 2007, 11:14

Thanks for all the advice. I have a canister Eheim 2217 hooked up to the tank. I think I'm going to look at a larger system for him this weekend.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 Mar 2007, 11:51

I have a canister Eheim 2217 hooked up to the tank.

I think this may be part of the problem.

I have two of these plus an even larger Eheim on my 70 gallon tank, and all my fish are small

Can you get hold of the Fluval FX5 in the US? Thse are big filters. A pond filter is another idea.

However, no matter how much filtration you have, unfortunately the tank is still too small for an RTC.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Mar 2007, 12:05

Just to clarify a bit on what Racoll said:
The bigger filter will cope with a bigger amount of ammonia released in a short time (and this is more prone to happen with large fish).

So getting a bigger filter will solve any ammonia/nitrite spikes you may see when feeding or when the fish gets rid of the ammonia in it's waste production (corresponding to our pee).

However, if the problem is what I think it is, namely a high level of nitrate, any size filter you can think of will not solve that, unless it's coupled with either a nitra-zorb type solution, or larger/more frequent water changes.

The nitra zorb operation will require a sufficient amount of nitra zorb and frequent recharging of the adsorbant. And you still need to change the water relatively frequently, since the nitrazorb will replace the nitrogenous waste with salt in the water, something that is ALSO bad for the fish - just not quite as bad as nitrate.

I have a tank that is roughly the size of a standard US 125g tank, and like racoll, I have two filters, one Eheim 2028 (designed for tanks up to 150 gallon) and an internal Juwel Jumbo filter (also up to around 130g).

Note that most manufacturer are "optimistic" about how well a filter works for a certain tank-size.

By the way, my largest fish are around 7" long (I have four of these), so I don't have anything near the size of an 18" fish in my tank - even if I count all 6 of my current setups (which is 1 x 125g, 1 x 28g, 1x6g, 1x16g, 2x50g => 280g or thereabouts).

--
Mats

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 06 Mar 2007, 16:58

Again I was misinformed when I purchased this tank set up.

I'll be stopping on the way home from work and getting another filter like you discussed here.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Mar 2007, 17:11

SuperMom wrote:Again I was misinformed when I purchased this tank set up.

I'll be stopping on the way home from work and getting another filter like you discussed here.

I don't know what you were told in the shop, but there's no way that anyone who knows what a Red Tail Catfish is like would ever be ABLE to just sell the right stuff for it - because we're looking at custom made tanks (several feet in every of the three dimensions) at this point, with large-size pond type filtration. This is not "off-the-shelf" stuff that you just pick up or get delivered to your home.

The Eheim 2217 is a good filter - it's similar specs to the 2028 that I use for a similar size tank, and it's fine for "general use". It's simply that you don't have a regular fish in your tank, you have a growing monster. And it's going to produce a lot more waste than your average fish.

Racoll makes a good suggeston with the FX5. Another 2217 or 2028 from Eheim would also be fine. (but the FX5 is a better choice for about the same or less money).

To seed the filter, I would suggest that you take some filter media from the existing filter and squeeze it/rinse it (with old aquarium water) over the new filter media to get a starting culture of "good bacteria".

--
Mats

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 06 Mar 2007, 18:27

Matt,

Don't know if you remember me mentioning my tank set up was for some fish as a beginner. Hunter was purchased as a 6" catfish to clean bottom of the tank (remember my 18 wheeler). I never intended to have a tank with one hugh fish and a little filter.

I've come this far so now I have pay the price and fix the mistakes. The mother in me is freaking out because he's not eating. I have to make him better.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 06 Mar 2007, 19:19

I really feel for you SuperMom.

You've been put in a very difficult position, but getting a new filter is the best thing to do in the short term.

Post by **medaka** » 06 Mar 2007, 19:43

Just to add.

When I was in charge of 3 large RTC at I place where I worked, the RTC were housed in a 600gallon aquarium, the filter was quite large,, (it held 85gall) and filtered the water at approx 600gall per hr.
The nitrates levels were not the problem, Ammonia levels were always the problem, especially shortley after feeding. To help combat this, I only fed them in the evening; and carried out 30% water changes, the following morning; then another 20% was changed the following day, btw; I only fed them every 4th or 5th day. If I was unable to carry out these water changes, the increase in ammonia levels that occurred when the RTC urinated, not only effected the fish them selves but the filter, resulting in high ammonia & nitrate levels which had a detrimental effect the fishes health (as discussed). Just to mention I never fed the RTC's any oily type fish, i.e. mackerel. herring, trout etc, as there is more ammonia levels present in the urine, compared to white based fish such as Cod.
When a junior staff member once fed them with trout, in error, when I wasnt there, then following day you could actually see the fish pass urine, it was bright yellow in colour, and as a result I had to carry out two 30% water changes on the same day, to combat the increased ammonia, and help ward off a "filter crash".

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 06 Mar 2007, 23:32

I don't know how to add photos to my profile like you did Medaka. (You would think I would know how since I'm admin of my own forums LOL)
So I uploaded these images to my site for everyone's viewing of Hunter when he was eating. Isn't he the cutest

http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/101_0022.jpg

http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/101_0028.jpg

http://www.wolfbattalion.com/upload/store/101_0034.jpg

Post by **medaka** » 07 Mar 2007, 14:23

Hi Super Mom

All I did, was to enter an altered photo, of a dorsal view of an Erethistini species, and uploaded it via the avatar control panel in my profile, you should be able to do the same via your profile

BTW nice photo's, also try feeding him on prawns from time to time, it will help in keeping his red tail red, however some do tend to loose the intense red colouration as they get older.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 07 Mar 2007, 17:08

medaka wrote:Hi Super Mom
BTW nice photo's, also try feeding him on prawns from time to time, it will help in keeping his red tail red, however some do tend to loose the intense red colouration as they get older.

He's been only eating freeze dried krill/shrimp which i think is the same as pawns. He/she never got red even when he/she was a baby.

Post by **Shane** » 07 Mar 2007, 17:39

Supermom,
Just wanted to say bless you. You really are trying to do the right thing after ending up in a bad situation.
-Shane

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 09 Mar 2007, 23:07

UPDATE:

Still no change.

I have a second filter 2217 installed. I also am treating him with KanaPlex every other day.

The guy in the fish store said to stick with the filteration system I have if I wanted two so it would be easier on me when buy filters etc.

He gave me the KanaPlex and said take the carbon out while treating and after the third treatment (which is saturday) on Sunday do a 1/2 tank water change and then start the treatment again (three more treatments).

He tested my water and said it was perfect that I have everything just right.(I wanted to make sure I was doubting my results.)

He also said that I have to accept that I'm doing everything right for the fish and it could be something out of my control (like a tumor). So we'll see what happens after the treatments kick in.

I'll let you know what happens. I also wanted to thank you all for the crash course in treating a Red Tail.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Mar 2007, 10:35

He tested my water and said it was perfect that I have everything just right.(I wanted to make sure I was doubting my results.)

Do you have the actual results?, as what is "fine" to one man is pretty far from fine to another!

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 10 Mar 2007, 11:17

Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
ph 6.8

I watched him do it and he said it was good there was nothing wrong with my water. The Nitrate / Nitrite results he said good and I looked at the card and I know one was blue the other one was yellow. So I think 0 is the answer (the one at the top of the card)
I know I sound really dumb about this but I'm confident the water results he did and I did were correct. I'm still getting use to doing these tests because I was only doing ph till you guys explained so if I sound dumb part of me is still learning.

And Ammonia was 0 which thrilled me after what you guys had posted!

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Mar 2007, 11:22

Is the nitrate reading of 0 from your test, or from the shops test?

It seems odd, as a 0 reading of nitrate is practically impossible in an aquarium, especially one with an RTC.

It is also extremely rare to have a zero reading in tapwater.

However it is very common for nitrate test kits to give false zero readings.

SuperMom · Post by **SuperMom** » 10 Mar 2007, 11:54

I'll run the test again.
BUT here is a question

I just noticed that his back right side fin in gone down to a numb. Two whiskers are half gone.

Is it possible that the apple snail or the pleco that are in there with him are attacking or eating his fin and whisker?

The whiskers happened last night. They were there when I turned the light out. After futher inspection I found the back fin.

Can it be the snail? I can't image a common pleco doing that to him. The pleco has been in the tank with him since day one and is about 8" long.

What could be doing this to him?