Help! Pleco may be in dire straits!

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 01 Mar 2007, 15:59

My pleco is missing a band of skin in the center of his tail. It is getting larger and is raw at the edges of the wound. We don't know how he suffered this wound but we suspect it had something to do with a tank change.

The story... while out of town my brother in law (who was watching the house and animals) called to tell us that our aquarium cracked. He put the fish in a bucket, bought a new tank and put the fish in. He tried using a bacteria boost recommended by the shop clerk but the tank was toxic immediately and all but one pleco died within an hour. I would have done things differently but he did what he thought was right. I don't have a QT and he saved only about 3 gallons of water when he removed the fish from the cracked tank. Frankly I consider us lucky that the entire tank did not burst spewing fish and water all over the house.

It has been 6 days since the tank was changed. The new tank is a 37 gallon with Eclipse lid. The filter and biowheel are new but I've floated the old biowheel in the tank water. It does not fit in the holder on the new Eclipse lid.
I also installed a continuously monitoring LIVE NH3 strip which is currently reading TOXIC which means it's at or over .40!
I noticed a very slight growth of algae only at the waterline in one small area.

My BIL felt bad and brought over some cheap feeder goldfish at 12/1.99 to help cycle the tank. I'm not sure this was a good idea but having no other home for the goldfish I put them in the tank with the pleco.

Pleco has 2 caves for hiding and does so often. It won't eat, or wouldn't... I think I caught it nibbling on a wafer but it could have been rejecting it instead. Sometimes he moves about the tank and clings to an upper wall away from the flow of the filter. His overall color is excellent, not stressed at all. I hope this is a good sign. He has no other indications of illness and seems to be breathing normally. The wound began as bloody looking spots (like a hickey) on his tail, then the skin sloughed off and exposed white underneath. The band was initially a finger width but now is a full inch with raw edges.

I have a photo of his poor tail. The goldfish were cleaning the area but I'm afraid they'll start eating healthy tissue too! (Sorry but I don't really care much for feeder goldfish)

Previously my tank has required very little maintainence. My silver dollars were as large as my palm. Nobody ever died in my tank unless they were old. I've never had an algae problem or ick. It has been years since I set up a new tank. At one point our roof was destroyed and we had to move out of our house and back when the roof was fixed. Some of the tankmates died then too - except the pleco. He's been through so much and always hangs in there. Bless him!

I've had this pleco for 8 years! I don't want to lose him or have him suffering. I just don't know what to do for it. I hope you can please help. I love him. His name is Louie. Where can I submit the picture of the injury? You can view a good close up at this webpage.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... ID=3692080

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MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 01 Mar 2007, 16:28

First of all welcome to Planet Catfish.

First of all, I would start making 25% per day water changes. That will slow down the time it takes to cycle the tank, but it will improve the fishs living conditions. Also, keep the feeding to "nothing" or "very little" - fish are less likely to die from starvation whilst the tank is cycling than they are from the ammonia created by food (either directly by the food deteriorating in the tank or indirectly by becomming ammonia from the fish's metabolism).

The goldfish will help producing ammonia, which is really not helping matters much...

Plecos are pretty sturdy animals, so as long as you can keep the water good, you have a good chance of saving old Louie.

Make sure you use a dechlorinator on the new water, to avoid killing of any of the good bacteria that has already started forming.

--
Mats

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 01 Mar 2007, 22:21

Mats thank you for the answer. It's a 37 gallon tank and 25% change PER DAY day sounds like a lot! I'll do a water change right now though, since I trust your judgement as a moderator but I have a few more questions and will be watching the board for the answers.

Did you have a look at the photo? Do you think his tail will heal?

I have the following products on hand. Which should I use for the water changes?

Nutrafin "Cycle" for reducing fish loss in new tanks. Releases massive amounts of beneficial bacteria. 1 dose per 10 gallons - not a dechlorinator.

Bio Coat - stress defense. To protect fish from stress from abrasion, wounds, water change, etc... eliminates chlorine and chloramine. 1 dose per 10 gallons.

Wardley Superchlor Plus - broad spectrum neutralizer for chlorine and chloramine. 1 dose per 1 gallon.
(This product is a few years old, is it still effective?)

A 25% change is approx 10 gallons. I'm wondering if I should use a dose each of the CYCLE and the Bio Coat for EACH water change? (the BioCoat yes, but the Cycle for every change?)

Thanks!
Please look at the picture if you have not already.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 02 Mar 2007, 11:16

Unfortunately, I can't see that picture, something is wrong with the link - I can't figure out why, as I don't really know what the URL is supposed to look like. From what you describe, it's probably heater burn - which is caused by the fish trying to hide next to the heater. I had that on a , around 15-20% of the back of the body was sore and bloody for several days, and the scarring was visible for about a month, but it healed and can't be seen any longer (the fish is now a year older, and I've repositioned the heater so that it doesn't encourage the fish to hide next to it).

For a gruesome sore that healed, see this one:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=16798

Yes, 25% on 37g tank is a fair amount (as you say, around 9-10g), but you need to remove some of the ammonia each day, which means you have to remove enough water to make a difference - more than 25% is fine, doing 10% will reduce the ammonia by 10%, which is hardly noticable, right? If it's 0.40 or 0.36 isn't really that much difference. Getting it down to 0.3 will be better, and if you can get it down to 0.2 by doing a 50% water change, better yet! I generally do 30-50% water changes on my tanks every week, but my tanks don't have ammonia, so I don't need to worry about diluting the ammonia, just removing the nitrates the fish produce!

You can add Cycle to the replacement water, it won't do any harm, but I wouldn't sweat it if you don't have enough to last you more than a day or three - the bacteria should live in the filter and on the substrate, not floating about in the water-column to any large extent, so removing water will not remove bacteria in any large amounts (do NOT vacuum up the muck in the gravel - that's good bacteria living there!)

I use a product called StressCoat from API, but there's at least half a dozen other brands that do the same thing - remove chlorine and chloramine. That's what's important. I'm not sure if these products last years or not - probably do, but if it's several years old, I'd probably bin it just to avoid the chance that it's not working right... As a 64oz bottle of Stress coat is $15 or so (at http://www.petsolutions.com - under Water Conditioners), I wouldn't worry about the cost of it. I buy the 16oz bottles (for a whole lot more than Pet Solutions, and with four tanks of a total volume of around 150 gallons, it would last me several months.

Best of luck.

--
Mats

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 02 Mar 2007, 16:18

Please try this link. I moved the picture to yahoo in hopes that you would be able to view it better from there. Maybe you can tell me what kind of plec I have? It came from the pet store, I assume it's a common one.

I know for certain that it is not a heater burn. I'll start the water changes this afternoon. I feel so much better about it after your advice.

Should I be concerned with the goldfish nibbling at the wounded area?

How and when could I introduce sand to the tank? We have beautiful beaches here, I could bring sand home from the beach (would it need to be treated or soaked first?) Currently the substrate is quarter inch river rock pebble but I would like to pour sand over it. I liked your pictures with sand as a substrate.
Thank you, Valorie

[Mod Edit: Make Picture into picture link]

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 02 Mar 2007, 16:28

From that picture, I can't say for sure what type of pleco it is - it looks "common", but there are a few different species that are "common". Probably one of these:

The sore certainly looks similar to heater burn, but it's quite possibly caused by something else - I can't really say, because the only way to really know what causes a sore like that is to see it happen - anything else is just guess-work.

The goldfish nibbling at the sore may be a concern - if the pleco seems irritated by it, I'd recommend removing the goldfish - or the pleco, whichever is easier.

As to introducing sand into the tank, I'd recommend that you don't do that until you know for sure that the tank is stable. You will want to rinse the sand A LOT before you add it to the tank, and don't lay it too thick. I wrote a long explanation on how to change from gravel to sand in either Speak Easy or Tank Talk some time ago, so I won't repeat it now. Do a forum search for "changing substrate" or some such.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Mar 2007, 16:47

Please list your location by going to your profile so we can give you more relevant advice.

I agree wih Mat that it sure looks like heater burn but it also looks like a disease I have seen afflicting my own plecos that often starts with a lesion like this then progresses over the fish resulting in death. I know of no way to treat for it and the result have all been fatal.
Let us hope it is just a physical injury. I have used an old fashion method for treating similar injuries which is as follows:
1. Set up a quarantine tank, seeded sponge filter or just an air stone. Heater set to 84dF.
2 Add one teaspoon of aquarium rock salt and enough methylene blue to darken the water enough you can't see the fish.
3. Directly swab straight methylene blue on the wound.
4. Put fish in tank for 3-4 days, then change the water with fresh aged water from the other aquarium and observe the fish and put him back in the other tank when the wound is healed.
This method is not very stressfull to the pleco.
Anything more serious is not likely a treatable disease.

You should avoid beach sand from ocean beaches.
It is better to seek out a clean freshwater stream away from the ocean. You need too have some sieves.
Top sieve should be ~ 1/4 in openings and bottom sieve 10 openings/inch. Keep all sand/grave retained by the lower sieve for your aquarium gravel.
I do this myself and collect very nice looking natural substrates for my planted display tanks.
The stream collected material has already had the rough edges smoothed out and I have found that my plants grow very well in it.
Of course you need to understand something about the geology of your area but generally if the stream contains healthy fauna such as crayfish, trout, minnow and sculpins etc. It will prove to be aquarium safe. You will have to wash it clean of all debris, aquatic organisms and then I recommend soaking it in a bleach solution overnight and rewashing it again, and then a final rinse with water containing a dechlorinating product.

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 02 Mar 2007, 21:05

I live in Palm Harbor Florida which is in the Tampa Bay area - Gulf Beach side. I have adjusted my profile accordingly.

I know it isn't from a heater burn because I don't use a heater. The injury started as little red spots similar to a hicky on the skin, then progressed to the skin sloughing off and now the skin is cracked exposing the flesh underneath.

I have little hope.
But I have done the 25% water change.
I don't have a quarrantine tank but even if I did, I don't have any suitable cycled tank water to fill it with.

What is the most humane way to put him down if necessary? He has been such a sweetie these many years I hate to have him suffering. I can't tell if he is in pain. His coloring is not stressed at all. Included here is a picture I took this morning. There are no more than 36 hours separating these two pictures. The progression from normal to this stage of injury has been exactly 7 days. I can't imagine what caused the injury. Brother in law says the fish went straight from the rescue bucket to the tank.

http://geocities.com/vspen/injuredplec3pic.jpg

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 02 Mar 2007, 23:45

This appears to be the same disease I mentioned above.
I'm sorry. Euthanize by hitting it in the head sharply
with a hammer or club.

Your region has too much coral based limestone to collect your own.
Buy your substrate at the LFS.

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 03 Mar 2007, 01:09

Oh my gosh.
My heart is broken.
We just got back from dinner and his tail is partially torn. I can't stand this. My husband has promised to put him down when I'm not looking.

Thank you Larry and Mat for trying to help. I am thankful to have found this website even if too late to help my Louie.

I'm going to abandon the sand idea for now but I wonder, is the playground sand in the bags from Home stores a suitable substrate or should I look to purchase sand from a petshop? I located a dedicated aquatic shop not too far from here. I plan to visit when the tank is finally ready for new fish. I would rather buy stock from them than from the chain pet stores.

I am so, so sad about Louie. My husband thinks I'm silly to be emotional over a fish but I have a feeling a lot of you in these forums would feel the same about your own.

Blessings, Valorie

Stubob · Post by **Stubob** » 03 Mar 2007, 21:12

API do a product called Nitra Zorb that i've used on numerous occasions and comes in a couple of sizes. This selectively reduces nitrite, ammonia and nitrate without using bacteria and sits in your filter or in the path of waterflow. It's recharged every 5 days using an aquarium salt solution and can be used until soiled. This will help with the cycle in your tank quite rapidly, around 3ppm in 24hours.
Also there's a product called Esha2000 that does a wide variety of symptoms and can be used as a treatment to wounds directly. They say 5 days treatment of this will clear up most symptoms but obviously isn't a miracle cure. Take a look;
[url]http://www.eshalabs.com/esha2000.htm
I'd be gutted if on of my fish died as well. Especially if he was 8!!!

kcmt01 · Post by **kcmt01** » 03 Mar 2007, 23:24

For new tank conditioning fish I like White Cloud Mountain Minnows. They're cheap and tough, and won't take over the tank someday like the goldfish will.

KC

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 04 Mar 2007, 19:24

I've been trying to make this post for hours but I keep getting an "Invalid Session. Please resubmit the form" error message.

My husband hasn't put Louie down yet. Every time I see his face and watch him hanging in there I just want to give him a chance to survive. The tail damage isn't any worse now 2 days after those pictures were taken. I've been doing the 25% water changes and I'm going to remove the goldfish so they'll quit stinking up the tank. I'm only going to save my kid's favorite colored ones. The others will be introduced to our little front yard pond. They'll thrive there, they always do... until they get big enough for a Florida Heron to spot as a nice meal. The circle of life.

HERE IS A QUESTION! Would the pond water be suitable for the aquarium? It's clear and nutrient rich. The water has been an ideal home for frogs and goldfish for many years and is well established "old water." Would it be okay to take about 10 gallons of pond water for the aquarium?

I'm not sure if our LFS carries the same water treatment products as the UK but I can have a look.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Mar 2007, 12:53

API is a US company, and I found at least one US Web-site that carries it (albeit Illinois is a bit more than a half-our drive from Florida, more like half a week if you don't share the driving): http://www.aquariumpros.com/c-FMra.html

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Mar 2007, 15:27

AquaticEcosystems Inc carries the full line of API products and are located in Florida. They due have a minimum order surcharge for orders less tha $50.00 but they carry many aquarium products that could quickly reach fifty dollars. Their website: aquaticeco.com

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Mar 2007, 15:39

Larry, Good to see that someone could find a closer shop... My example was just the first one I could find that looked like it wasn't in England.

--
Mats

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 05 Mar 2007, 16:10

They are aquaculture supply specialists.
This where I buy all my bulk quanties of Eathworm pellets and flake.
They sell everything from complete laboratory self contained set ups, lab equipment and even discus spawning cones. You name it, they have it.

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 06 Mar 2007, 01:54

Did another 25% water change today. Treated the new water with Wardley 3-in-1.
I also added a continous monitoring Ph meter and a new thermometer.
In addition they've received a new external background (they must like it because they keep looking at it) and a tank length bubble curtain. Louie the Plec LOVES the bubble curtain and has been bathing himself in bubbles since the second it started running.

The current conditions in the 37g are .40+ TOXIC NH3, Ph of about 7.5, temp 74f. Water is cloudy due to the cycle and treatments.

Louie is hanging in there yet another day. The skin is split all the way around now on both ends of his wound. The wound doesn't look any better, but no worse either as far as I can tell. We continue to wait.

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 08 Mar 2007, 03:22

I bought the full set of testing drops. No more little strips. The pond water is perfect. The aquarium water is terrible yet the water is nearly crystal clear now. Hopefully it won't be long until the Ph drops and the bacteria finally balance the tank. There are currently only 5 tiny goldfish eating a pinch of food every other day.

Louie seems to be doing great. His color is always rich and dark. His tail... well, I can't tell if it's healing or not. The outer skin is nearly sloughed off completely - part of it just flows with the current. The flesh underneath seems to have toughened up from exposure. The 'disease' hasn't spread to any other part of his body. That has to be a good sign. The exposed fleshy part of his tail is thinner and less meaty than it should be. Withered is the perfect word to describe it. I wouldn't be surprised if he hangs on just like this but scarred for life - or even if the tail simply fell off at some point - but the blood supply must be good because the end on the other side of the injury/disease looks as perfect as the rest of him.

Louie absolutely LOVES to just lay in the bubble curtain streams all day. He is very content there. I just wish the water quality was better.

I've posted a new picture here.
http://www.geocities.com/vspen/Louiemarch7.jpg

vspen · Post by **vspen** » 14 Mar 2007, 01:06

New pictures of the progression of Louie's condition. Today I moved him to a hospital tank - using 4 gallons of water from the main tank. Added the appropriate dose of medication API MELAFIX Antibacterial fish remedy. The label says it rapidly repairs damaged fins, ulcers, and open wounds. Promotes regrowth of damaged tissue and fins. Natural Fish Medication Extracted from Tea Trees. (It smells like Vicks Vapor Rub.)
The move to the hospital tank caused the lesions on his body to burst. The flesh looks red and raw now.
Do these pictures help anyone determine what could be going on here? I simply cannot find similar pictures in any web search.

Help! Pleco may be in dire straits!

Help! Pleco may be in dire straits!

I am hopeful my Plec is doing better!

New Pictures of Wound Progression on Pleco