Help --- Tigrinus has ICH !!!!!

[swong]

I need help on treating my Tigrinus.
She is about 12". I bought her about 2 months ago. I beleive she is a wild caught. I had a difficult time to get he to eat. I tried frozen prawn, scallop but she refused. After about 2 weeks, I put some feeder goldfish in and she started to eat. She eat a total of about 20 over 3 weeks time. After she finished all the feeder, I tried frozen food again but she still doesn't eat. I introduced another 10" cat fish in (I don't know the name)to let this new catfish to train the Tigrinus to eat frozen food but no luck.
They are in a 120 gallon tank with no other fish. This morning, I found ICH all over their body. I think it came from the new catfish.

My question is when I add ICH medication, do I consider the tigrinus are bottom feeder so the dosage should be reduce to 1/2? Tigrinus seems to be scaless.

Other question is the best practice to train her to eat frozen food.

Any advise and comment is appreicated......

[MatsP]

Ich doesn't, generally "come with fish" - it is caused by stress-factors in the fish that lowers the resistance in the fish against the parasite. The parasite is "ever present" in any established aquarium.

As to the dosing, all catfish are scale-less. According to fishbase the fish is "demersal", which means that it lives near the bottom of the river - whether that makes it a "bottom feeder" or not is a more complex question - I wouldn't say so myself - it's an ambush predator that likes to sit and wait for some unsuspecting fish to swim close, and then attack it.

Make sure you add extra aeration in the tank when you add medication (or if you prefer, use the method of raising the temperature instead of medication).

As to the best way to make the fish eat non-live food: A lot of patience is probably a good idea here... Once the fish is settled in it's tank, you may want to try starving it for some time and then offer some frozen or non-live food. These fish don't eat every day in nature, but they will eat a large meal one day, then rest for anything up to a week. So making sure the fish is REALLY hungry will help wean it off live feeders.

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Mats

[swong]

Thank you very much Mats for your advise.

I added ICH medication (2/3 dosage)and raising the temperature. As the tank is big, it will take some time for the temperature to rise. How high should I raise it to? Would it be better if I also add salt together with the medication and temperature raising?
How much salt should I add?

As for feeding, my scare is to starve her to death.
She has been starved for 2 weeks before I added feeder gold fish. I'll try to see if I can take a good picture when I go home tonight and post it here.

Thanks again
SWong

[MatsP]

I'm not a great fan of using salt, and you've already got a pretty strong dose of medication there, so I wouldn't suggest adding more "medication" (salt) to the tank - mixing different forms of medication can have unpleasant side-effects.

I'd aim for around 86'F or slightly higher. But make sure you have VERY good oxygenation of the water.


Whilst newly imported specimens may need a bit of "fattening", most fish will suffer more from overfeeding than starvation. These fish may go a week or two without food in nature - even longer if it's "bad" hunting.

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Mats

[ChileRelleno]

I realize that this thread is somewhat older and the OP has either successfully treated or lost the fish...
But I must comment on the poor general knowledge.
What utter rubbish...

The parasite is "ever present" in any established aquarium.

MatsP, ya need to update your knowledge of ICH...


For Cats and other species which may be sensitive to salt, I suggest heat/heat with meds.
I don't really care for meds and heat does the job nicely on it's own, and a Tigrinius can handle high temps just fine.
Kick that heat up to 88'f or higher and aerate.


A compilation of articles and my own recommendations for treatment(s),
http://www.oscarfish.com/cms_view_article.php?aid=597

Read these articles, read the linked articles/documents in their links, the Skeptical Aquarist has some especially good links.
"Knowledge is Power" & "Know thy Enemy", read, read, read, read, read...
SkepticalAquarist article
AquariumAdvice article
Cichlid-Forum article

Lets dispel a common 'Fish Myth' right off the bat...
ICH is NOT always present in the water/fish...
It is not airborne, it doesn't travel by Spores, it will not come in via tap-water during a PWC and it does not lay dormant.
It must be introduced in some way as noted below.

If you follow through on the 'Heat & Salt Treatment' as specified, I practically guarantee the 100% eradication of ICH within your tank...
Unless you re-introduce it thru lack of quarantine/preventative treatment with new fish, unquarantined/untreated transfers of plants, decor, water or by cross contamination thru the use of equipment in multiple tanks.

'Heat & Salt', either of these treatments alone can/will kill the ICH protozoa, together they eradicate ICH very effectively and completely.
This treatment is especially safe with Oscars as they are very tolerant of both heat & salt.
Please be aware that some fish, inverts and plants may not handle heat or salt well and treatment may need to be adjusted to fit their needs.


Temperature:
Raise it slowly, but ASAP, to at least 86'f, preferably 87'-88'f.
One degree (1'f) every twelve (12) hours is the normally recommended interval for increasing heat, but in a emergency like ICH I'd raise as much as one degree (1'f)every six (6) hours.

Duration:
Hold temp for at least two weeks after the last sign of ICH.

Oxygenate:
This is extremely important because water holds less O2 at higher temperatures.
Filter outflow splash, spraybar or powerhead flow directed at surface, airstone/bubblewands are good ways to increase surface agitation.

Salt:
Salt is not required, but it is IMHO very helpful and I recommend the combination of Heat & Salt.
I recommend continuing the 'Salt treatment' for the duration of the 'Heat treatment'.
Use at your discretion.
Be aware that some Cats/Plecos (in particular Corydoras), Tetras, Loaches and etc, can have adverse reactions to salt.
Fishes that navigate by electric fields, like Elephant Noses, Knifefish, certain Eels should never be exposed to salt.
Many plants are intolerant-highly intolerant of salt.

By raising salt levels to 2-3 ppt or 1.002-1.003 specific gravity above what one normally keeps the tank at can destroy the Ich parasites. It has a strong effect on osmosis, and dehydrates the parasite to the point the parasite can no longer function and dies. Again, raising levels slowly but not too slowly is key here; raising salt 1 ppt per day is recommended. Generally 7.6 grams of salt per gallon is equal to 2 ppt or 1.002-1.003 specific gravity . However, it?s the chloride ions which are necessary for the treatment, and different salts have different levels of chloride. It?s best to purchase a hydrometer which measures low levels of salt to ensure proper dosage.
2 weeks at those levels sure eradicate all the parasites. Again, be sure all the fish in your tank can deal with those levels of salt. On that note, most scaleless fish CAN handle these levels of salt. Plecos and Loaches especially do fine despite Internet rumors to the contrary. It has been noted some tetras and Cory's do not do well with salt, however.

Based on everything that I?ve read to date, I would feel comfortable adding 2-3 tablespoons salt per 5 gallons if I were also using the high temperature treatment outlined above. If I were using salt alone, I would work my way up to 4-5 tablespoons per 5 gallons. We don?t want to skimp on our treatment if we hope to permanently eliminate this pest. Salt should be added slowly over the course of 24-48 hours or so (always dissolve in a small container of tank water first). Keep a close eye on your fish and perform an immediate water change if they show any additional signs of stress (beyond what the Ich is already causing).

For detailed info about salt check this out, SkepticalAquarist- Salt

Here are the conversions/measurements for dosing salt from a reliable source, see page four (4), table 3, units in parentheses.
conversions/measurements
Note; you may want to adjust your dosage +/- as desired.


Water Changes/Vacuuming SubstrateWater changes are very helpful in fighting ICH infestations.
Using a gravel vacuum, do a large water change and thorough vacuuming water on a daily basis.
This eliminates a great number of trophozoites and tomites from the water/substrate.

Other ways to combat ICH
A UVS, Ultraviolet sterilizer when properly setup will kill free-floating ICH.
A Diatom filter will capture and kill ICH too.
Micron filtration depending on the size may perform as Diatom does.


Medications:
I would only recommend the use of standard* medications as a last resort, and used in conjunction with the heat treatment at slightly lower temps, 80'-82'F, these temps will greatly speed up the life-cycle and shorten the time needed to medicate successfully.
IMO this is the last resort, a truly desperate measure for a ICH infestation gone unchecked...
I cannot recommend any of the standard* meds, use at your own risk.
Their effectiveness when used as directed is controversial, despite manufactures claims some still seem to affect a tanks bio-filter and many fish-keepers report undue stress related complications.
Many ICH meds will adversely affect/kill scaleless fishes and inverts.
Many ICH meds will also further deplete oxygen levels, take countermeasures as per above.

*A non standard med, ICH-Attack.
ICH-Attack is a 100% natural remedy that has proven anti-protozoal and anti-fungal properties.
Active ingredient is Naphtoquinone which is not known to be carcinogenic as many standard meds are.
Manufactured by Kordon, available at various retailers.
DrsFosterSmith

If you use standard meds the read this...

Do a water change prior to starting treatment and remove the carbon from the filter media; not the entire filter. If the carbon is part of the filter cartridge, make a slit in the side of the filter media and remove the carbon.
Be aware meds will most likely destroy the nitrifying bacterial colonies. Be prepared to measure ammonia and nitrite levels, and reduce the levels if necessary, by water changes or ammonia/nitrite reducers (this is the only time you?ll see me recommend their use!). Water changes likely will affect levels of meds in the tank, and you may need to adjust doses to keep the meds at the levels needed to kill the theronts.
Once treatment is finished, you?ll need to remove the meds from the water. Best way to do this is to run fresh activated carbon in your filter for a couple of days.
** Do note, the directions on the meds are generic; if you remember from the earlier discussion ich has a life cycle with only one stage susceptible to meds. Do not follow the directions when it comes to length of dosing times as some will claim to eradicate Ich in as little as one dose. The first treatment will only kill a percentage of the parasites (remember the Ich life cycle). It?s better to continue treatment till 3 days after seeing the last white spot on your fish; this way you can be fairly sure you have eradicated all the parasites.
AquariumAdvice article

Please realize that ICH like everything else in the world has it's exceptions, however rare.
There has been cases where ICH has been able to complete its full life cycle under the fishes slimecoat/skin, rendering it for all intents untreatable.
There are cases where ICH has survived salt as high as five (5) tablespoon per five (5) gallons. (Not sure as to what this dosage equaled when measured in 'ppm' or 'specific gravity'.)
There is one (That I know of.) reported and documented case where ICH survived temps beyond 87'-88'f.
These are rare exceptions, not the norm.


These are my opinions, this is how I would treat my fish, just my $0.02...
Goodluck!

[MatsP]

I realize that this thread is somewhat older and the OP has either successfully treated or lost the fish...
But I must comment on the poor general knowledge.
What utter rubbish...

The parasite is "ever present" in any established aquarium.

MatsP, ya need to update your knowledge of ICH...

The following are the two first hits on google for "Where does ich come from", and it seems to support my statement:
http://www.nunnie.com/ick.html
http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/articles/Ich.html

Any other (reasonably selected) hit on the same google results page doesn't seem to contradict it either, but some results were not particularly useful for Ich as Google finds all sorts of other pages when you enter that many different (common) words.

They may of course be wrong, but at least I'm not alone in being wrong if that's the case.

So if you have some better explanation of where Ich comes from, please explain. In the latest (hopefully last) instance of Ich that I've experienced, the tank had no new additions for several months (the cause for the outbreak, in my opinion is that I didn't perform good water change regime at the time of the outbreak).

[Of course, the Ich found in most probably came in with SOMETHING added to the tank - but not necessarily the latest fish/plant addition to the tank]

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Mats

[Floody]

Sorry Matsp not picking on you, but you also state that all catfish are scaleless.
What about Callicthyidae?

[MatsP]

You're not picking on me for asking a question (and I don't beleive I'm always right either - if someone questiosn something I say, I will check it up - that's how you learn things). In this case I don't need to check the answer, as it's something I know from before, and it's also documented Here and Here in the "FAQ".

Callichtyidae and Loricariidae are both scale-less, but they do have something resembling scales - it's called "bony scutes", which is a bone on the inside of the skin [and that's really the difference between scales and scutes: scales are OUTSIDE the skin, scutes INSIDE the skin].

When it comes to aquatic medication, scales also mean that there's less skin-to-medication contact, compared to when there are no scales.

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Mats