Canister Filter--very confused

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 13 Feb 2007, 01:06

Yeah, I think you're right, Larry. I'd taken another look at him and saw it's just because he's pale now that the spotting pattern appeared reversed to Haraldschultzi pattern. His head shape is rounded like the Sterba cories'.

Well my filter is on its way. Would it be okay to also put the old gravel I've got bagged up in the tank now into the media basket of the canister filter, to help colonize the new media? I'm leaving the Aquaclear on for a bit longer because my bacteria colony is still so fragile I'm afraid of disturbing them by relocating them to the canister. Just from freeing the stuck impeller a few days ago, it set me back several days from 0 ammonia readings and incited an ammonia spike. A modest spike, but a spike nonetheless. It had been zero! Gahhh!

BTW, I fixed the title of this topic. I apologize to everyone for spelling "canister" wrong. I fixed it so it will show up if people do a forum search.

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 13 Feb 2007, 01:50

I would keep running both filters simultaneously for three weeks. Then you can remove the AquaClear.
Seeding the new canister will only make a couple days difference out of 3 weeks. You will have to decide if that is worth the hassle.
It is even OK if you continued to use both. The main advantage of that would be that there will always be a mature filter running at all times if you alternate cleaning of them. This is a technique more appropriate when some idiot is overcrowding his tanks. Someone like me.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Feb 2007, 10:45

I agree with Larry - keep both filters running at the same time. Gives you more filter capacity, which is never a bad thing.

Also agree on the Baensch Aquarium Atlas series for reference books - very good, detailed descriptions of all the fishes, and as good information as you'll ever find in a printed document. Obviously not quite as good as you'll find here on Planet Catfish or other good web-sites (at least for the commonly kept species which have good info on this site - there are plenty of info "missing", but that's more likely to be with species that are rarely seen in the trade anyway). The big advantage with a web-site is that it only takes a few minutes to change the content of a page... So when new data arrives, it can be changed in a matter of hours, rather than years in printed form.

--
Mats

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 13 Feb 2007, 10:58

I'd like to keep the aquaclear running as a backup myself, but I'd like to have one less thing plugged into my power strip if possible. Would it be better to instead ditch my air pump, which powers only 2 piddly airstones anyway? I think the filters, if set up correctly, will provide enough surface agitation to properly oxygenate the tank better than that cheesy bubbler does. But somehow, running a tank without bubblestones seems almost un-patriotic, sacriligeous, and any other evil thing.

I made the extremely painful decision and the extremely painful action of killing the ailing sterba. It was a hard decision to make because unlike the others I've euthanized, he still had a lot of fight left in him. He was showing symptoms of air bladder disease or maybe it was just plain old constipation--I did feed some dried blood worms today--I didn't learn until this evening and looking it up, that you should wet dried foods first to avoid swim bladder problems. Alas, I don't think it was as simple as all that. He was going downhill for days now and whatever was ailing him wasn't just a bad time with his meal. As the night wore on, he was spending more time upside down and respiration was labored. My husband still wanted to give him a chance, but it came down to him or the ailing danio. The danio has shown slight improvement and is peaceful enough to be kept in close confines. The sterba would occasionally shoot like a bullet headfirst into the sand. I didn't think that would go over too well in the small confines of a 3 gallon tank. The danio would not stand a chance with that crap going on.

The danio MIGHT have a chance. The danio is clearly diseased--but with what I can't say for sure. I'd medicate him if I knew what it was I should be medicating for. The only symptom are extreme thinness, slight bent to the spine toward the tail, and slightly roughened looking dorsal scales. Color is good. Apetite isn't much but he still eats if portions are kept very small, and so hasn't gotten emaciated...actually looks like he may be filling out a little again.

He seems to like being isolated. Oddly enough...I never saw the other danios bully him. They bully each other mercilessly, but gave this one a wide berth.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Feb 2007, 11:20

So sorry to hear about your fishes health problems.

In my stand, I've wired in 4 dual sockets -> 8 outlets of electricity. Only one of them is free and one is used for a non-aquatic battery charger.

In my fish-hut, I've allocated 2 dual sockets per tank, but I'm thinking that may not be enough...

Aquariums have lots of hoses and wires - that's just a fact you have to live with. Multi-socket extensions, cable tidies or cable-ties are your friend to keep the stuff from being a complete mess...

I don't have air-stones in all my tanks, but I like to have them in there. It helps move water around in a diffferent way than the filters do. The filters generally make the water swirl around in some form of circular movement in the tank. Airstones lift from the back (or side) up and to the front (opposite side) and back down again, stirring water from the bottom to the top of the tank, making the oxygenation more evenly distributed. Getting water to move in all three dimensions simulataneously is a good thing!

You can, for some filters, get a venturi device, which is essentially a piece of tube and a little "valve" that injects air into the filter-outlet, to help oxygenate the water. It's another way to make the water contain more oxygen. Don't know if this is available for either of the filters you have/are getting.

--
Mats

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 13 Feb 2007, 12:23

Thanks Mats,
The funny thing is, when I have to euthanize, I think of Larry's discussion of how he mercilessly culls especially in regards to illness & that helps me feel LESS heartless about it and more like I'm just doing an unpleasant but ultimately caring and responsible thing. I believe in giving a fish a fighting chance when at all possible, but I fear if I'm dealing with a pathogen that may exit soon after a natural death in search of a new host--not euthanizing may be the crueler option.

I know I may have New Tank Syndrome issues going on, but I still am questioning whether or not I'm dealing with Oodinium/Velvet or something similar. At least in some of the deaths.

Especially because in the past couple of days, I've noticed some of the cories flashing & against the sand. If I'm noticing it, it must be going on a bit more than usual.

Now I'm left in the quandary of whether or not I should set up the new filter (Rena XP3) when it arrives to try and put an end to water quality issues ASAP...or if I should wait and see if I'm dealing with a pathogen that will eventually claim all of the fish regardless of water quality--with the idea that wait and see will keep me from contaminating an expensive piece of equipment needlessly.

The hard part is so far, it's almost like a serial killer deal rather than an epidemic. Or put another way, amongst the cories, it's like a relay race where the baton being passed is illness and death. Same amongst the danios. Two different types of fish, serial deaths in each group. If I would just lose 2 or 3 of each group at the same time, with the exact same symptoms, that would help me narrow it down a bit.

I mean, if it's Velvet, I would imagine I'd see the fish die off rather quickly and in clumps, not one at a time, fading away mostly.

The reason I bring up Velvet, is the kind of almost rusty tint to some of my Danios. And now the flashing of the cories. However, the tint doesn't look exactly like any of the (rather poor) photos I found of velvet on fish. On the photos, you can clearly see spots--small, but definitely spots. Not just a hazy tint that may or may not be natural coloration.

Time to go sacrifice a package of algae wafers to the catfish gods and hope they bestow mercy upon my tank.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 13 Feb 2007, 12:37

It's hard to say what's causing the illness in your fishes - all I can say is that if you read any ammonia or nitrite, that would be a sign that it's NTS. If not, then it's something else - what is hard to say.

I'm not entirely sure that a better filter will actually fix anything for the present sitation, but it's certainly not going to hurt.

Maybe you should check your nitrate values as well.

--
Mats

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 13 Feb 2007, 13:21

Culling/euthanizing is a difficult decision. It becomes a bit more confusing when you begin breeding. I would follow Mats' advice. It sounds as if it may be New Tank Syndrome. The bio-filtration needs to build up. Medicines are usually a last, last choice, unless you see worms or something in the tank. Once your bio-filter is amassed, water changes usually cure what ails the fish. How much are you feeding them? I used to overfeed them to no end in the beginning.

I had no idea adult fish could go up to a week or sometimes 2 weeks without food.
Amanda

apistomaster · Post by **apistomaster** » 13 Feb 2007, 14:43

I like a few bubbles myself. It is possible and still gives you the airstone effect to run the outlet of the new canister filter near the bottom and use the airpump to supply air to it. It will send out the same volume of water but mixed with small bubbles. You have to pump the air when you go deep because the venturi suction alone is not enough to draw air down much more than 6 or 8 inches. I do this on many of my tanks.

Only treat the fish if they do have velvet. Danios are susecptible to this disease. It can be hard to see. Try looking for a fine "dusted" look on their skin and fins with a magnifying glass. If it is present, treat the fish. Don't worry about contaminating the new filter. It will not become anymore of a permanent reservoir for the disease than the tank itself. The organisms are generally present at all times but strike the weak and severely stressed fish. Common Ich falls into the same category. Carbon must be removed prior to using the meds. The same stuff that is used on Ich works for velvet. Advanced velvet takes a little longer to cure than Ich. Cyprinids, Killiefish and Anabantids are among the most susceptible groups of fish but it can attack other fish including catfish. The armored Catfish like Corydoras and Plecos are severely infected by the time you can detect it.
It's beginning to sound like you bought a bunch of sick fish. Those that are dying have had whatever it is for quite awhile.
Once you get these fish well you should get a five or ten gallon tank to quarantine new fish in.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 14 Feb 2007, 01:18

I managed to get a close look at the survivors and the 'tint" is just that, coloration and not velvet. However I can't get a peek at the danio in the hospital tank because he's hiding behind the fake plant I had in there to make the fish feel more secure. I know he looked a little roughed-up, though. I saw him last night.

Water parameters are not good but not anything I haven't seen before: ph 7.8. Ammonia 0. Nitrite .25 and Nitrate high end of 10 on the color chart.

I can't imagine why I would have had 0 nitrite readings for several days in a row, then spike up to .25 with the only disruption/unusual occurence being I had to get sand out of the impeller chamber to unclog it. The rest of the filter was kept as sheltered as possible. If that's all it takes to wipe out my good bacteria, I would definitely be up a creek if I don't add or switch over to a higher capacity filter. As it was, I chose the 200 because it was rated for even larger tanks than mine.

I have this reading of nitrite despite doing a 50% water change yesterday with aged, treated water. Tap water tests 0 for nitrites.

So I will go ahead and hook up the canister filter when it gets here--if it gets here, supposedly tomorrow. We're experiencing some really inclement winter weather here. Freezing rain on top of ice on top of snow. If you all don't hear back from me, it means we've lost our electricity.

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 14 Feb 2007, 07:46

Amanda I think I overlooked your comment about overfeeding. I definitely did overfeed intentionally when the UGF was in, due to the UGF taking the food before the fish could get to it--flakes would sink like a lead weight. I was able to work out a gravel vac schedule that seemed to strike a balance, but it seemed like more work & micromanagement than other people without UGF's have to put up with.

I am pretty sure I am not overfeeding now. All that I see is poop, not uneaten food as debris. Since I don't have a UGF to nourish, I can get the poop up daily with great ease without disturbing the sand except during sand-raking day.

But the bloodworm feeding is a problem. There are no leftovers, of that I am certain. But the Danios eat so fast that they puff out like puffer fish. And the cats don't get any, so then I put in more than I want to so the cats get some. It does all get eaten ridiculously fast, but then the danios do enormous sized poop several hours later. The catfish don't ever get much of the bloodworms so the poop levels out of them can't be much more than usual. Still, the poop gets vacced up pretty fast, too. However, I don't know anything about fish pee--I suppose that must be increased as well, especially after a high-protein meal? Gosh, that never occured to me until just now. Oh crud, I feel like an idiot!

Well I skipped feeding them today. I'll do a test tomorrow, see where the nitrites are at, and make my decision to feed them based on that. Thanks for bringing the topic to my attention. I should have given it some thought before. I just didn't make the connection until I read your comment. Double duh!

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 14 Feb 2007, 11:40

Filter being stuck can cause the nitrites to spike. But it can also means that you STILL haven't got enough bacteria in there...

Also, if you leave the poo in there (yes, I know it sounds a bit gross, but it's natural to fish), the corys will make use of some of the leftover nourishment that went straight through the Danios when they binge-eat like that.

Using a turkey-baster or similar to "push" the blood-worms or other frozen/live food to the bottom when you have agressive top-water feeders like danios will also help.

--
Mats

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 14 Feb 2007, 17:23

I know I've made some mistakes with this tank, but sheesh! I found MANY anecdotes on other forums from other newbies who have had the same sized tank and almost identical setup doing even crazier things like one guy stocked with 32 LARGE incompatible fish within 3 months of setup & was posting about ONLY 2 fish losses, which were due to a jump-out & a freak accident. Another person put an enormous amount of fish into a brand new tank filled with untreated water straight from the tap, and still had plenty of survivors to post questions about.

So I'm far from being the stoopidest newbie title winner. Yet if I so much as sneeze at this tank, I seem to cause a toxin spike & kill my poor fish. Oh well, just venting. I joked to my husband that the tank is cursed, because my dad gave it to me for my 40th birthday, and without going in to cheesy talk show detail, let's just say dad was actually kind of nasty to me on my own birthday, and leave it at that.

So, given all that I've been through from day one with this tank, even if half of it is my own doing, I'm going to broach the subject to my husband of scrapping it and get a tank of dimensions and size I would prefer to work with to make a suitable environment for 3 schools of cories (pepper, aeneus, sterba) & whatever Danios I have left & maybe a trio of upside down synodonts. THe particleboard stand my aquarium currently sits on, though supposedly meant for aquaria, warps at the edges every time a drop of water spills on it. And trust me, being short, I spill a lot of water trying to work with this tank filling it or reaching in to move a decoration or reseat something. I think the stand would be better served being repurposed as a small tv stand.

I would like to switch over to a tank with sides only 16 inches high, greater length and possibly greater width to give a shallower, larger surface capacity creeklike feel for the cories. But I would go up only a few gallons because I want to just transfer all my existing equipment & contents, minus the hood, of course, which falls apart all the time anyway and actually once dumped the corner of the light fixture into the tank. I do still have PLENTY of sand to add to a slightly larger tank.

Okay, it felt good to get THAT off my chest. Am I really going to do this, I don't know. I have a budget I was trying to stick to. Plus I didn't want to hurt my dad's feelings scrapping a gift so soon. So...probably not. But it was cathartic to get that out of my system! A girl can dream...

Don't mind me, I'm just having a nervous breakdown. Well, not really, but I do need to get my coffee!

EDIT: ahh, have my coffee, kid is snoozing...had a chance to look at my setup and the more I look, the more my dream seems not only doable, but kind of silly not to do it. My current tank seems disproportionately small compared to the rest of the room and the space it's in. I could easily get a longer tank and still have plenty of room to work behind/around/in front of it. In fact, I could easily set up the new tank alongside the existing one temporarily for full transfer purposes. I would not even have to unplug much, just flip off the master switch on the outlet. The floor is Pergo laminate so if I get the right kind of footing on the new stand, I can slide the tanks around, partially filled, slide one out, slide one in its place.

Water transfer would be a very simple matter. Fish transfer--a matter of seconds. And since I would be using the same water to start with, same filter, same plants, cycling should be only a little worse than what I am dealing with now. There would be some mess from sand transfer & adding the new sand, but again, no worse than what's already been done. I certainly have sand handling down pat now.

Okay, so I'm absolutely stupid and insane, but I've already gone through so much, may as well go through a little more and get EXACTLY what I want. Don't worry, no new fish will be added for a long, long time.

Now my next decision...acrylic or glass. I know the pros and cons of each, more or less. Just don't know which is safer on a slightly sloping floor that could stress a tank a little.

bronzefry · Post by **bronzefry** » 14 Feb 2007, 20:45

I know I learn only one way. The hard way. Join the club.

Amanda

hellocatfish · Post by **hellocatfish** » 15 Feb 2007, 02:23

I've always been one to research and plan ahead before I get or do anything. This time I sort of plunged right in. I thought, "Oh well Dad and I had loads of tanks when I was a kid...I'll just have mine set up the way his was...how hard could it be?"

Sigh...sometimes I hate being the grownup!

I told my husband how I wanted to get a new setup. He just raised his eyebrows and announced he needed a nap. If I do get a new tank I will be paying for it out of my own funds. I have been doing just about all of the work on the tank myself. Still, it's his house, too, so I'm hoping he'll give his approval on my idea.

I am trying to research SeaClear tanks because I can acquire one of those fairly easily and fairly affordably. I am considering acrylic only because of the lighter weight. I want to impose on my husband as minimally as possible. I'm strong for my size but I don't have much size to me, and far less lifting ability than I had prior to my c-section. So if possible I want to get a tank I can lift by myself--get it up to the tub to rinse it and back down to the family room to set up, all by myself.

Edit Update: Hubby is fine with a longer&lower tank & says he wouldn't mind helping me with a glass one if that's what I stay with. We looked at pictures of SeaClears on another forum. Weird openings on the top of them may mean I wouldn't have an easy time cleaning or configuring. However, added safety factor of acrylic around small children is attractive. Scratch concerns around my daughter is negligible because I'm likely to put more scratches on it than she is.

XP3 still delayed due to bad weather. And I guess that about wraps up this topic. Sorry I have digressed so horribly. It's a breach of netiquette I'll try to curb in the future.